Beta Ignition Idea, Another Epiphany?

[dan williams]

I think I

[chewy]

Now I am worried. I (and the missus) have 08 Betas (200) one of the reasons I bought them was because we need lights etc. to pass scrutineers for trials in France and the layout of the switches, "bulbs", and buttons is neat. We have had no apparant problems, the only time nothing wants to work is after washing. My problem is that if presented with 3 wires to connect you can bet your last dollar that I will make 9 efforts to do it and end up with burn't wires or fuses... now it seems possible or maybe even probable that the bikes can do this for me automatically and it is likely that the first time we notice this will be in the middle of Rannoch moor when one or both of us run out of sparks. I shall watch this space with intertest.

[neil king]

Mr. Williams, there should be no connection between the light switch and the kill switch, exept for the ground. I had a lot of problems with the kill switch on mine but it always worked independently from the light switch. The light switch is connected to the voltage regulator and the kill switch is connected through a diode directly to the CDI and ignition coil. I have considered that maybe the kill switch is somehow causing ignition component failures.

[dan williams]

Remember the cover of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? Don't Panic I don't know the HTML code to make "large, friendly letters". Just large letters. This is just an idea that I'm investigating that was sparked by an odd electrical behavior in my bike. It's not meant to scare people into thinking their bikes will fail. Just like all the other bikes I've owned all the lighting stuff will be coming off this one as well but I thought this was a possible answer to the small percentage of CDI failures that some have experienced. Again this is the type of thing I do for a living and for my work a 1% improvement in failure rate is millions of $$ over the course of a product's lifetime. For Beta this is an annoyance to be sure, for the dealers it's a real pain but for the owners this happens to it's a nightmare so if I can get insight into a failure mode and it turns out there is a simple answer everybody wins. If my suspicions are correct the fix may be as simple as one more ground wire run to the headlight switch assembly from a hard ground point on the chassis or even making sure the ground connections on your bike are clean and tight but for now I'm just gathering information.

I'd rather this didn't deteriorate into an attack/defend thread. Believe me I'm a hardcore Beta fan. I've been riding Betas since '89 and have no reason to change now. But I'm also an engineer so by nature I love a puzzle and this one falls smack dab into my speciality. Hey if I can help a fellow Beta rider love his bike as much as I love mine it's all good.

So back to the original question, Have the bikes with CDI failures had the lighting cluster installed?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Dan Williams

[Guest majestyman340]

Remember the cover of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? Don't Panic I don't know the HTML code to make "large, friendly letters". Just large letters. This is just an idea that I'm investigating that was sparked by an odd electrical behavior in my bike. It's not meant to scare people into thinking their bikes will fail. Just like all the other bikes I've owned all the lighting stuff will be coming off this one as well but I thought this was a possible answer to the small percentage of CDI failures that some have experienced. Again this is the type of thing I do for a living and for my work a 1% improvement in failure rate is millions of $$ over the course of a product's lifetime. For Beta this is an annoyance to be sure, for the dealers it's a real pain but for the owners this happens to it's a nightmare so if I can get insight into a failure mode and it turns out there is a simple answer everybody wins. If my suspicions are correct the fix may be as simple as one more ground wire run to the headlight switch assembly from a hard ground point on the chassis or even making sure the ground connections on your bike are clean and tight but for now I'm just gathering information.

I'd rather this didn't deteriorate into an attack/defend thread. Believe me I'm a hardcore Beta fan. I've been riding Betas since '89 and have no reason to change now. But I'm also an engineer so by nature I love a puzzle and this one falls smack dab into my speciality. Hey if I can help a fellow Beta rider love his bike as much as I love mine it's all good.

So back to the original question, Have the bikes with CDI failures had the lighting cluster installed?

Surely if this problem is as common as you seem to be suggesting, it would be madness for Beta not to have sorted it out?

[baldilocks]

A friend of mine had an 03 270 Beta. Four sets of electrics were replaced between getting the bike at Christmas and it being sold just before Easter in 2003. He hasnt had a Beta since and the lights had been removed by the dealer before he got the bike. So I can say that in this instance it wasnt the lighting that caused the problem.

[paul w]

After re-installing the modified clutch pack for the new

[dan williams]

Thanks, that's one data point. Going through 4 ignitions in such a short period of time points to an environment failure such as a serious wiring fault and away from simple reliability of electronics which still supports my theory with the rather large hole of where would the two systems cross-connect. The first rule of statistical analysis however is not to make assumptions from insufficient sample size. One is not a sufficient sample size.

Heh heh "Mr Williams"? You sound like my mom. I did notice the diode in the kill switch circuit and that is something I haven't noticed on any other bike I've worked on. It may very well be Beta has come to a similar theory and that diode is there to prevent errant current from the 12V lighting circuit dumping into the CDI. I'll have to look at earlier revisions of the schematics. If the diode isn't there that supports the idea. There's no other reason for it to be there.

As for the clutch, I found that if I take the fiber plates out and smooth the edges of the tabs that index the plates to the basket they slide smoother and the clutch works better. It's been covered in other posts so I won't go into it here.

Dan

Edited March 21, 2008 by Dan Williams

[copemech]

Dan,

As I am no Beta expert, all I can tell is that those little switch pods are real nifty, when they work. As far as failures of the stators, you might try to communicate with this guy, as it seems he repairs most all of them. Coils or triggers, I have no idea, but ?

motoplat UK

[dan williams]

OK I just looked at the schematic for the '06 and there is no diode in the kill switch circuit. That's good enough for me to say that's the fix Beta put in place on the newer bikes to prevent damage from the lighting circuit back feeding into the ignition if a ground goes intermittent. There's simply no other explanation for it being there. Should be easy to retrofit to an older bike if you're concerned. It still couldn't hurt to run a separate ground wire from the lights/horn to the "ground" mecca on the frame.

See wasn't that relatively painless to figure out. Now there's no reason for anybody to blow out a single ignition let alone four.

[baldilocks]

OK I just looked at the schematic for the '06 and there is no diode in the kill switch circuit. That's good enough for me to say that's the fix Beta put in place on the newer bikes to prevent damage from the lighting circuit back feeding into the ignition if a ground goes intermittent. There's simply no other explanation for it being there. Should be easy to retrofit to an older bike if you're concerned. It still couldn't hurt to run a separate ground wire from the lights/horn to the "ground" mecca on the frame.

See wasn't that relatively painless to figure out. Now there's no reason for anybody to blow out a single ignition let alone four.

which is great in theory Dan but I'm sure somebody has recently posted of an ignition failure on an 08 bike. Perhaps you work for Beta ? they tell us every year they have fixed it.........

Edited March 22, 2008 by Baldilocks

[dan williams]

I assure you the response I get from the Beta faithful when I post is more along the lines of, "Oh crap, he's at it again." I'm not a fan of ignoring an issue. I'd rather figure it out so it can be fixed and move on. As for working for Beta no. I did PR work for the Fantic and Aprilia importers some years back if that's significant to you. Beta's people have treated me very well. Starting with not trying to squelch me when I think I've found something that can help other riders not only on Betas but other brands as well. I've got a lot of respect for that.

The one thing that really grinds my gears is to see someone get on the boards with a problem only to be harassed into submission by the brand specific fanboys most of whom are dealers. Nothing turns me off from a brand faster then that. As for your friend with the bad experience I don't think it was a Beta specific problem he had. I think his dealer hooked his kill switch up wrong. It's the only explanation that makes sense. Maybe this thread will give someone the insight not to do that and save someone else from a similar experience.

So Baldilocks are you a dealer?

[dgshannon]

...I don't think it was a Beta specific problem he had. I think his dealer hooked his kill switch up wrong.

This may be the better path to pursue, than those where the lights were left on. The act of removing the lights, and leaving only a kill switch (setup wrong, faulty, intermittant, etc.), may be the contributor to the failure. Sounds reasonable that a design weakness, combined with inconsistant (or questionable) modifications, could potentially lead to failure. The seemingly random variable may be the modification itself.

[Guest majestyman340]

I assure you the response I get from the Beta faithful when I post is more along the lines of, "Oh crap, he's at it again." I'm not a fan of ignoring an issue. I'd rather figure it out so it can be fixed and move on. As for working for Beta no. I did PR work for the Fantic and Aprilia importers some years back if that's significant to you. Beta's people have treated me very well. Starting with not trying to squelch me when I think I've found something that can help other riders not only on Betas but other brands as well. I've got a lot of respect for that.

The one thing that really grinds my gears is to see someone get on the boards with a problem only to be harassed into submission by the brand specific fanboys most of whom are dealers. Nothing turns me off from a brand faster then that. As for your friend with the bad experience I don't think it was a Beta specific problem he had. I think his dealer hooked his kill switch up wrong. It's the only explanation that makes sense. Maybe this thread will give someone the insight not to do that and save someone else from a similar experience.

So Baldilocks are you a dealer?

Surely if there was any real problem with these bikes it would have been sorted by the factory, and not left for people posting on these forums to figure out?

Edited March 23, 2008 by majestyman340

[baldilocks]

I assure you the response I get from the Beta faithful when I post is more along the lines of, "Oh crap, he's at it again." I'm not a fan of ignoring an issue. I'd rather figure it out so it can be fixed and move on. As for working for Beta no. I did PR work for the Fantic and Aprilia importers some years back if that's significant to you. Beta's people have treated me very well. Starting with not trying to squelch me when I think I've found something that can help other riders not only on Betas but other brands as well. I've got a lot of respect for that.

The one thing that really grinds my gears is to see someone get on the boards with a problem only to be harassed into submission by the brand specific fanboys most of whom are dealers. Nothing turns me off from a brand faster then that. As for your friend with the bad experience I don't think it was a Beta specific problem he had. I think his dealer hooked his kill switch up wrong. It's the only explanation that makes sense. Maybe this thread will give someone the insight not to do that and save someone else from a similar experience.

So Baldilocks are you a dealer?

No Dan I'm not a dealer, its just my sense humour, I'm not getting at you. I have had most bikes in recent years and I'm not brand loyal to anyone, I just buy what I fancy riding.

What grinds my gears as you put it is the quality we receive from all the manufacturers not just Beta. To give a more balanced view I own a sherco and the standard rear shock is very poor and tends to fail in the uk, not all of them but enough to be an issue. I had a few Gas Gas Pros, fantastic bikes to ride but the kickstart gears break, the gearboxes are weak and I had ignition problems on two of them. I have had a scorpa, that was the most reliable bike but I found it difficult to ride. I have never owned a 4rt but many people replace the sumpgaurd and footrest brackets for more robust items.

I had an 03 and an 04 Rev 3 and I am a very rare owner in that the original ignition never failed on either bike. The funny thing was John Lampkin sent me an ignition stator the week before the six days to fit which was supposed to be of better quality. When fitted to the bike it didnt even spark and it was brand new ! What sort of quality control had that component passed ? I put the original one back on and it was still working fine 6 months later.

My question to you Dan is why you are working to resolve a problem Beta have had for five years that I am aware of ? Why arent Beta and the rest of the manufacturers resolving what are well known problems ? And why are people so keen to see the xispa fail ?