mr clean

Thanks GB moto and Trial Pat! Question for Big John: What can you tell me about the frame and tank setup you have, and any other info? Is this a frame kit you can buy? Please post at least one more pic of the other side of your wonderful bike!

Well, I started with trying to find some ways to make a TL-250 lighter. I was interested in finding aftermarket lighter frames from the 70's, as vintage motocrossers have picked up BRAND NEW frames from back then for as little as $50, and in most cases less than $200. So, I thought there would be a few different types of lighter aftermarket frames out there somewhere. I have not yet got an answer to this one. I also thought that the finding an quiet alloy exhaust system that would easily bolt on and drop considerable weight would be a fast and easy find. All I have got so far is someone offering a custom fabrication for $850US plus shipping. Ouch, and no thank you. The Honda standard exhaust is very good, except for its high weight. Also, The TL-250 weighs 218 lbs, so did the SWM Jumbo, and Italjet I think was heavier. A late model Sherpa T weighs in at 204, so putting an alloy exhaust on the TL-250 gets rid of high up weight and brings it closer to the Sherpa weight. Problem with the TL-250 is that so much of the weight is up high.

Accoding to Sammy Miller the bike has never been imported to UK, and they have no stuff for it. How typically Honda. They made excellent 300 to 360 cc works bikes with innovative designs, won major titles and put together top Trials teams. Then never made these bikes available to the public and tried to send the works bikes to the crusher???? So someone told meme that the RTL-300 motor is 3 inches shorter than the TL-250. The motor can be made to closely match this bike. First obtain an XL-350 motor. Have the XL-350 motor bored to the max, have a ultra short stroke crankshaft and con rod CUSTOM FABRICATED and put in. put all the gears and everything else from the TL-250 put into the XL-350 transmission. Use the XL-350 flywheel because its very heavy. Replace as many of the internal engine parts and all nuts and bolts with CUSTOM FABRICATED titanium bits. Have the cylinder machined down and shortened several inches. Have an SOHC Head made from scratch or see if something else might fit??????? In the end it can be modified to fit into an aftermarket TL-125 Frame because it is shorter. It has been enough fun just to find an alloy exhaust for this thing. This will be lots of fun to get tuned and fitted properly. When ever someone says CUSTOM FABRICATED I get a pain in my wallet If anyone can find a link or picture I would be intersted to see if anyone has actually done this successfully. Is this real or BS? Why do I see a lot more money and time going into this approach than I want to try? Just buying a new 4RT is looking cheaper and easier... (and a little more competetive)

My post about natural and nude trials dissapeared. Is the Victorian age is alive and well?

A nice muffler design If I could find a setup like that it would be perfect.

Hi GBmoto: Your TL-250 looks really nice. Do you know how much weight you have managed to save with what you have done so far? Also, how do you do the seat mod? Do you buy a kit or can it easily be made by yourself? Is the bashplate removal and replacement a kit that you buy, or did you have to fabricate from scratch. If purchaseable, where can I buy it? I think that by replacing the entire exhaust system with alloy, the weight saving is around 13 pounds. That's nothing to sneeze at, and the bike would be much better to ride with that weight off of it!. So funny, just like you I had a Fantic 240 twinshock that I sold, powervalve installed, very powerful, Outlaw Dave bought it, and is restoring it. Unfortunately I had no workshop to do this in. If the Fantic was in like new shape I would have kept it. Then I found a deal on a Beta TR-34C. After one ride I put it up for sale! Blech. Yuck. Phoey This TL-250 came along in excellent shape, not a project bike at all. I have to say, that for years I wanted one of these, not a TL-125. It is not necessarily as competetive as something lighter and newer, it will be when the weight is reduced. Also, for the fun factor, this bike has everything else I have owned beat hands down. NO CONTEST. I love my old Honda Trials thumper. I wish I found one in this good a shape a long time ago. See my thread in Mechanical talk about pound age reduction.

Reflex Comments If you have the choice between the two bikes, go with the TLR. If you get a Reflex, change the exhaust and get it re-tuned, and re-jetted to TLR specs, for the reasons I mention above. Also consider that the skidplate, rims, exhaust, tires, and probably other components on the Reflex are much heavier and lower quality than the TLR. If the TLR was available here, I would have bought one. I couldn't stand the Reflex because it felt heavy and ran so poorly. Step 1) I saw that it was a lot of work to get them to run correctly. I believe the Reflex will not run correctly with the standard Honda exhaust. Step 2) Get the weight off of it. Replace the heavy rims, remove the battery lights and wiring, throw away the stock exhaust system, replace the skid plate with something durable, renthal handlebars, etc. Step 3) It may need lower gearing and better tyres. It's quite a bit of work and money to get a Reflex to run right, tuning, gearing, tyres, handlebars, skidplates, and weight. Quite a few people have bought them and got rid of them for the above reasons. My TL-250 feels lighter, starts easier, and runs better than the standard Reflex. I will be keeping my TL-250, I just want ot make it lighter. The TL-125 and 250 are fun bikes to ride unmodified. The Reflex stalls constantly and unpredictably. It is also very hard to kick over. I have ridden Honda Reflexes that were tuned lightened and modified. They were great bikes with the changes. It also cost the owner as much as the purchase price of the Reflex to get it to work right! Otherwise the Reflex is probably a tough and long lasting set up.

Hey Doug, I couldn't stand my Yamaha TY175 as a teenager for lack of power. I strongly prefered and rode better on the 250. Today I am well over 200 pounds and I have above average muscular strength. My cardio sucks but its improving. I liked TL-125's until I had to ride them up anything steep, or any situation where lots of power was needed. This TL-250 on the other hand is excellent except for top heavy weight. I am pleased with the bikes reputation for holding together well and lasting a long time. I was never happy with the reliability and durability of my pre-Honda Montesa Cotas. Don't even get me started with all the headaches my three Betas (aircooled) gave me, both the mechanical and riding experience. Trouble starts with those things as soon as I jumped on the kick starter! The manual and partsbooks on those should come with a bottle of Tylenol Extra Strength. I had a Gas Gas Delta 325 that I liked, but it was a pain to service. For longevity the Honda TL's can't really be beat, until the motors get souped up... No way an old two stroke mono could last 15 years without a lot of work done to it constantly.

Hey Feetupfun, Well I put the word out to a few places about how to make this TL-250 lighter and I was sent an email about the big honkin Yamaha! I've probably owned close to 40 bikes, moztlu trials and the TL-250 in a few rides has been the most fun bike I've ever owned. Unfortuntely the TLR-250 was never brought in here. I've only seen one of the twinshocks in person, once. Anytime I have considered the Honda Reflex The bike has great geometry and suspension, but the wheels and parts feel like they are made from lead. Also the way they were set up from Honda, they stalled like crazy, and unpredictibly, and were very difficult to kick over. (This TL-250 is very easy to kick over and start, it runs excellent, and has not been tuned since new, and handles well.) I went to every Honda dealership in this area (lower rainland of BC) all of them ran like crap. I asked every dealer if they could make it run right and not stall. Three tried, and did not succeed. I would have bought one if they did make it run right. Unfortunately this was before the internet and it took time to figure out how to set this bike up properly. Write a letter to the trials magazines and wait for a response, make long distance phone calls, faxes, etc. I gave up on the Reflex and never bought one. Most owners I spoke to were very dissapointed with them. I believe that later on I found out the the TLR-200 on the market in Europe and Britian were made with much better components: Rims and other parts made from light alloy instead of heavy steel, etc, and the tuning was completely different, the bikes ran smoothly and did not stall. The Reflex was street legal lemon based on the TLR-200 but with cheaper and heavier parts. Monoshocks were all the rage at the time so I went that route and had to go two stroke. Once a dealer who brought in grey market bikes from Japan called me and told me that he had " A nice Honda 250cc Monoshock Trials bike that they just got in from Japan and you can have it for $2500CDN" I never forgot how much I loved the Honda Monoshocks I had tried so I made a B-Line to the dealership. I was expecting to see this RTL-250: I saw this TLR-250R: It was not in good shape, and the test ride experience was too Reflex-like. I didn't like it, I didn't buy it.

Mick Andrews builds Trials Bike for the Terminator And I thought the TL-250 was heavy.

TL-250 on eBay with Xl-350 motor installed BPS frame kits look very good, unfortunately I think they are for the TL-125 only.

An intersting highly modified Honda Found a complete Sammy Miller pipe setup for the TL-125 on a French site, nothing yet for a TL-250

Hi Barry, I see nothing online at either site about the TL-250, some bits for the TLR-250. I'll wait to see your response, and then fire off an email to them. NEW QUESTION Are any of the parts interchangeable between the TLR-250 and TL-250? I thought that the bikes were of completely different design? I really appreciate all this input everybody

Thanks for the fasteners, it was fastenating! Is Sammy Millers phone number always busy? I've tried for a couple of hours to get through and no dice. They also say online that they don't accept online orders?

Feetupfun: Where can I buy a ready made exhaust setup like that? Is it quiet? Sherpatensing: I hate two strokes, I am glad that finally thumpers are coming onto the market again. I always found it annoying to have to buy a two stroke bike to ride trials. Baldilocks: I want to keep this as a quiet vintage trials thumper, only lighter. So if there are weight savings with different rims, I may consider that route in the future. The rims and spokes are in perfect shape on this bike. Someone out there probably tried to turn one of these into a disk braked mono, I don't think I will be doing that. Mattylad: Thanks for the Eurospares article links. Very interesting that he reduced a bike by 52 pounds to 194 using easily available parts in 1971. Also interesting is that this was done without titanium, except for the handlebars. I also found it interesting that the triple clamps were easily replaced with an item 2 pounds lighter. Our modern bikes have Ergal triple clamps readily available. A great place to reduce the weight on a top heavy bike. "Every pound on top is good as 4 to 5 pounds below" Somewhere out there someone must have a TL-250 aftermarket frame kit, unused, that they want to unload, cheap? If memory serves me correctly: Sammy Millers Ariel HT-5 originally weighed 325 pounds. One year later it was down to 290 pounds. Gradually the weight was reduced to 245 pounds, until the lightweight Bultaco came along. Today people are getting the same 500cc Ariel HT-5 down to 205 pounds and it is still within the pre 65 rules. How? I have ridden Honda TL-250's with extensive lightweight modifications and thumper works bikes and I loved riding them far more than any two stroke. One owner told me the titanium in his bike cost more than the whole bike, OUCH! I am definetly going to do the seat mod, after I figure out how, and newer lighter tires, and a QUIET lightweight exhaust system. The other mods will be step by step, depending on what I learn starting with alloy screws, washers, and bolts on non stress items. Sammy Miller catalog on the way in the mail. How do I contact WES? Can't find a link online yet. Thanks all.

Where did my big long response go?

Helium? Or something I ate once in a ****** restaurant?

Thanks JayLael, I thought that a frame kit would be configured as you had mentioned, with the padded sumpguard as part of the kit.

Hey guys, I wouldn't have thought of the seat mod if I didn't read about it somewhere. There may be other simple things that can be done that experienced experienced people here know about. I don't know where to buy things like the frame, how to do this legendary 4lb. seat mod, etc. I don't know where to get or know how to build an aluminum exhaust system, there must be multiple sources of this stuff. I have found sources of individual titanium washers nuts and bolts. That stuff seems to be pricey. Before Monoshocks and disk brakes, there were kits available that enables an owner to replace every nut, bolt, washer, and even axles and other parts on any major British, Japanese, Italian, and Spanish trials and motocross bike with Titanium and aluminum alloys. I would like to buy a titanium kit specific to the TL-250, if possible, so I don't have to scrounge around. I recall that the full kit dropped the bikes weight 16 pounds and had detailed step by step instructions. I really am not the greatest mechanic in the world, nor do I have a good facility. I would buy a pre fabricated exhaust system and bolt it on myself. Is Aluminum really available or would I have to go with another kind of alloy? The entire exhaust system would need to be replaced for the most significant weight saving as the entire system is steel. I do know how to change tyres and a rear tube type modern tyre shouldn't be too hard to find. Haven't been able to find where I can buy these items. It's easy to find and buy trick bits for the latest modern bikes. I see lots of examples of aftermarket frames for the TL-250 and nowhere to buy them. People have supposedly made their Ariel 500 thumpers 40 pounds lighter than Sammy Millers GOV132 and are still legal in pre 65 events. How was this done? Like the boy scouts say: "Be prepared". I like to find out what I can before embarking on any changes and mods. Sources as well as ideas are appreciated. Someone here must know.

I haven't gotten much action in the other forum so maybe there could be some help here. I picked up this old Honda Thumper in good shape, and want to know about weight reductions and improvements to the bike. Also any sources for aftermarket parts, frames, ergal, carbon fibre, titanium, helium, etc. Reducing weight of TL-250 Cheers and thanks in advance

2.5 lbs lighter on the front tyre! (I thought that was the back tyre in my post on the quest for weight reduction on Honda TL-250) So I wonder how much weight is saved by going with a newer rear tyre over the Bridgestone? Must be good fore 4 lbs or more, but that is jsut a guess. So change the tyres, get more traction, and lose at least 6.5 lbs of weight on a vintage bike. Gotta love that!

I have seen your bike online before Big John, looks quite impressive. How does it ride? I took the TL-250 out on its maiden voyage today. It was very hot and dry, 38 C, so I looked for shade and there was not much wind. It wa not a long ride due to the heat. IMPRESSIONS: Love the motor, the frame geometry, gearing, suspension, brakes, and riding positions were good. It is definetly heavy, top heavy. When it starts to lean over or you bump into something and your path gets deflected, it takes a considerable effort to hold and change to the desired direction when compared to a lighter bike. The smooth 4 stroke power makes this manageable if you use the power and engine braking to influence the direction of the machine. If two stroke were top heavy like this it would be very unpleasant to ride in trials. It gets excellent traction and handling is predictable because of the smooth 4 stroke power delivery. The bike is a fun ride and I really like it. If I can get the weight down and especially lower the centre of gravity it will be an excellent twinshock trials bike. If I can't get the weight down, I'll still probably keep it and ride it, because its so much fun Thumping around. I sure hope that there are some inexpensive and effective ways to get the pounds off. Like the seat 4 pound saver (whatever that may be), and hopefully weight reduction in the exhaust system really is 13 pounds of tonnage.

I picked up a 1975 TL-250 in outstanding condition. Still had original Bridgestone tyres and chain and sprockets, and not much wear at all. I always wanted to own a 4 stroke Trials bike and this fits the bill perfectly. I weight more than the bike and am physically strong so the reputed weight of the machine should be manageable. I'll find out later today when I do the intial test ride. The suspension works great and it has heavy duty shocks specific to my weight, and a little higher than stock for extra clearance and better turning. Sammy Miller got his big Ariel down from 325 lbs to 245 lbs. Now I have read stories that Ariel Ht-5 owners are managing to get the weight of this bike down to 225lbs. Must be due to new parts and materials being available. Works Beamish Suzuki 325's weighed in at 165lbs in the late 70's. A lot of Titanium, plastic and aluminum alloy screws, and shorter shocks. The wheel spokes were titanium. I did some online searches and recalled from my memory things that can be done to get some ponds off this bike. I saw online that the Bridgestone tyres can be replaced with modern units and the rear alone will be 2.5lb lighter. So I estiomate the weight savings and traction gained will be around 4lb. with the tyres, plus better traction when needed. I read somewhere that something can be done to the seat by either removing or replacing a 4 lb metal plate for another 4 lbs off. From memory I recall an all Aluminum exhaust system was once available, which is designed to replace the entire exhaust system saves a whopping 13lbs, and the engine runs slightly cooler from improved heat dissipation of the aluminum material. I see online that there are or were frames available with improved geometry and unspecified weight savings. Different frames had different handling characteristics. I remember titanium frame kits for Ossa and Bultaco that dropped the weight of those bikes by around 12 pounds. This probably was not an inexpensive proposition. There have been many aftermarket frames made for many different trials bikes. I remember that there used to be kit that could be purchased which could replace most of the bits and bolts with titanium and drop the bike weight 8 to 12 pounds. This included steering heads, wheel and swingarm axles. I recall someone that stripped the motor and had parts inside the engine and transmission drilled , machined and replaced with lighter materials, dropping the motor weght by over 10 pounds. It was very expensive, and I probably wouldn't do that, but would like to be informed of the process involved. So there must be bits and brackets in this bike that can be replaced with lighter materials. Is the airbox heavy? Can it be replaced with a weight saving item, like the 4 pound seat weight saving modification? handlebars? All guideance and links to this sort of information would be greatly be appreciated. Also sources for parts if I need them. The chain on this is a 428? Is there a 528 kit available for this bike? Is it needed? What to do if I wear out the rear sprocket? I would also like to upgrade the footpegs on this bike and give it a folding shift lever, side pull throttle, and consider any recommendations you guys have. I'm not a mechanical wizard, I prefer will probably not disassemble the wheels and motor and put in titanium bits in the very near future. However the seat mod, tires, and exhaust I would like to do sometime soon. 20 lbs off a Trials bike is very helpful. Cheers

Has anyone rigged up one of these with a bikerack? How well did it handle with a trials bike on it? Links & photos please, I'm in Canada, if that matters.

Thanks, that helps me out a bit for fututre reference.