michael_t

Seriously... Hey Borus, I hope you realize we truly appreciate all you have done and are doing to support and sponsor the sport here in Canada over the past few years (and me personally last year). Funny enough I had a note from Marilyn (head of the CMA) wondering why the AMA and the Natc get soo much better sponsorship support than the CMA does... Regards, Michael

The Flatland Trials assoc has results and pictures on their facebook page... (link not allowed) looks like a great time was had by all.

Hey Borus, That sounds good to me. Hi Steve, no the WTC does not have membership cards as they cost money... CMA charges $80 per person for their cards and they have clearly stated that money does not go to trials. the only money that would go to trials would be money a sponsor donated with the express instructions it go to trials... not sure anybody has actually done that as when I asked they said they had no money available for trials. I agree nobody really needs anybody... but I kind of like joining a group of like minded people who treat me with respect... maybe you are correct that it all a secret plot of some sort but I will take my chances . Not sure what your question is about the FIM... but no they do not recognize anybody who doesn't send them a cheque... maybe it was rhetorical question?

Yes we are certainly coming from to very different perspectives. You say clubs can buy their own very inexpensive insurance... not sure what you consider very inexpensive... but can't beat the price from the WTC (Free). To be honest I don't use it as I use NSORRA insurance. I helped start the NSORRA a few years ago and it just hit 900 members this year which is pretty amazing for a dirt bike organization here in NS. So yes if you do have a larger organization that you can pull upon for insurance maybe there is no need but I really like that there is that option for anybody who would like to go the free route to start out. It really sounds to me like you are saying we don't need anybody (including the CMA and the CMA doesn't need us) as we are too small... so I suppose it is best we stick with the WTC for the time being and revisit it when we get a bit bigger. Congrats on the Nationals - sounds like a great family trip ! Cheers, Michael

Well... no response on the other thread http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/57211-wtc-vs-cma-why-not-have-both/page-4 hopefully there was some logic seen in it.

Here is a similar... http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/56329-trials-push-bike-for-moto-trials-training/

Getting back to the original question CMA and WTC why not have both ? Answering the following questions may help... These are my own personal answers and should not be considered official views of any particular group. Q: There are certain criteria in order to be classified as an "organization".. Does the WTC have any of them? A: or·gan·i·za·tionˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n/ noun noun: organization; plural noun: organizations; noun: organisation; plural noun: organisations 1. an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc. Not sure what the WTC is missing... there is certainly a body of people whose particular purpose it is to grow the sport of Trials across Canada. Maybe it could be argued we could be better organized but couldn't every organization? Q: They have a website, self appointed championships, and what is if for?? A: They are to help us be better organized by having a website we can publish a standard rule book promote our events and record the results. Regional competition and National Championships allow riders to progress and compete within the organization across our country. Q: What is the end goal here?. A: The end goal is to have legitimate Trials events right across the country that are organized and the results tracked to give the riders a sense of belonging to a national organization. An organization that is willing to support trials riding from coast to coast at little to no cost to the riders. Q Are there are already more than enough events, easy entry to the sport ( that's what clubs are for) ample opportunities to advance ( The TAC is extremely motivated and a main goal). Everything is already in place as Steve F. sees it. Strong clubs, who could all work together with the National Federation building a strong sport for all. A: There could never be enough events IMO. There where actually 3 or 4 years here that we had no events. I would love to see weekly training events and competitions in every province and even separate regions in each province (as most of our Provinces are larger than Countries in other parts of the world). From my experience the clubs are given no support from the CMA if they would like to join the CMA they are faced with a large expense and told they will get nothing in return. If they would like to be considered as a sanctioned event all riders would need to pay $80 a year. If they would like to use the CMA insurance policy there is an additional charge on top of that. For the past few years the CMA has repeatedly told me we are too small to consider joining the CMA and they have nothing to offer us for the money it would cost us. I actually asked if it was okay if we had members join the CMA and use our own insurance the answer it was fine to do that unless we used the WTC policy as they were seen as a competitor??? (hard to believe when Steve sees it as a non-entity). WTC provides free membership a free rule book pleasant and helpful people across the country willing to answer your questions. We get a say in setting the competition rules and the legitimacy of being part of a national group of people following the same rule book. All things that the CMA can provide but at a significant cost. Q: What is the point of the WTC? A: As I see it the point of the WTC is to fill a gap that the CMA fails to see. We need to be supporting local clubs not just expecting them to pay into an organization for nothing tangible in return. At one time there was no other option and the sport went on a great decline as people simply choose not to put on events or compete. This was extremely apparent here on the East coast. I think a great illustration of this was the event in NB last weekend we had 10 riders who had never ridden a trials event before some had trials bikes some shared bikes with people most didn't hand in their score cards... all had a great time! What would the value have been if we told them they had to send $80 to Ontario before being allowed to ride? On the other hand I felt there was value at the riders meeting to be able to say we are following the official WTC rule book, have people sign an appropriate waiver, and hand the land owner / organizer an official certificate of insurance. I did ask the CMA if they had any money to support Trials in Canada and the answer was no. I then asked that if I was to secure sponsors would that money go towards Trials in Canada... The answer was yes the money would be set aside and only used for trials. I then approached a number of sponsors who are supporters of trials in Canada and the resounding response was if you are able to raise money for trials you should keep it local and support growing the sport the way you have been. So that is what I decided to do. CMA does have the FIM status and the TAC is starting to make in roads with growing the sport. It is great to have both organizations as at the national level we need to have that in place but until the CMA can start supporting the grass root riders who just want to get out for few fun legitimate events each year there will continue to be a need for the WTC. As a side note it is interesting to see the growth in both flat track and Enduro riding in Canada since they moved away from the CMA...

I'll take another crack at it on the other thread as it is not specifically to do with just the WTC Championship.

Please see response #4 here: http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/57211-wtc-vs-cma-why-not-have-both/ If you read post #1 on that thread my reason for it was so this wouldn't keep happening every time we post an event... how quickly I forget (sucks to be getting old).

This appears to be a great neutral forum based out of the UK with no prejudice so shouldn't be a problem to post some facts and get things straightened out once and for all. Given that anyone who signs up for the CMA pays their $80 and identifies themselves by discipline. Do you have access to the numbers for the past few years by Province? Going back and forth may be tiresome for some but if we could get some of this stuff figured out I think it would be a huge boost to Canadian Trials. I personally see a need for both organizations... more riders, more events, easier entry into the sport, more investment, more opportunities to advance, and most importantly more good times (if we can work together). That is what is in it for me. BTW I have requested a name change and it is being taken under consideration. - possibly one positive change coming from these discussions .

Awesome ! I always have the best intentions but once things get started I typically forget all about the camera

I agree with Steve this is not a simple matter. There is a lot of history that is really hard to sort out. I do base a lot of my information from what I have read on the internet over the years and much of it has been removed due to "technical issues" I believe they truly were technical issues but who knows. Even when the information was there a lot of it contradicted it self just like a lot of the more recent stuff does. Steve from your posts above is it true that you were part of the original group that started the WTC in 2009 (with the thought of taking the FIM status away from the CMA). Then in 2013, with the realization that the FIM would most likely not move you moved back to the CMA. It seems like a logical sequence of events and am getting that from reading between the lines of above but hate to make assumptions. Again just from purely using the internet it would seem that Total number of entries in CMA trials was 114 across BC, Saskatchewan and Ontario . Total number of entries in non-CMA trials was 588 across the country. Of those non-CMA trials, there were 207 entries in WTC-sanctioned trials.

From what I can gather (from the internet) it would be best to ask Steve F. that question as it would seem he was part of the group that originally decided to setup the WTC... I agree they might have thought it through a bit better but it was before my time. It sure would be great if somebody had the minutes from some of those meetings so we could see what that group was thinking at the time... A name change couldn't hurt...

Hey Derek, Sounds like a great event. It is always great to hear people are making the effort to travel to away events. I would really like to have been able to make it out. Be sure to gets lots of pictures and video if possible, it is always great to see sections from other areas of the country.

Not sure how down playing anybody who puts on a non CMA event in Canada is in some way making a positive change for the sport? I agree with Dan just let it go already. World Trials Canada is a great Canadian trials group that openly accepts all trials riders and puts on events from coast to coast. Without them there would be a lot less events in this country. Supporting organizers who put on events all across Canada would be a true positive change for the CMA. We are actually having an event tomorrow in the Province of New Brunswick which is starting to see a great group of new riders getting into the sport. Hopefully we will see some of them competing in the WTC championship East in the near future as the sport continues to grow here the East.

I really enjoy my Sherco X-Ride for the type of trail riding you are talking about... but you may also want to try a proper trials bike (if you haven't already) keep your KTM for trail riding and use your trials bike when you want to slow down a bit and have more fun just bouncing around and over boulders with ease... just watch any Toni Bou videos and you will see how easy a real trials bike makes things - .

I used to run into the same thing... now before I start it, I put it in 3rd gear pull in the clutch and see if it is stuck if it is I just rock it back and forth a little until the clutch frees up... cuts down on that little surprise take off after the bike has been sitting for a bit.

I have never had that problem... here is a short clip of me riding my txt200 being followed by a friend who had borrowed my EC200 (between sections) pretty sure my adrenaline was higher than his - LOL https://youtu.be/AbZr2TLglTY

I usually don't over tighten the straps but if you are worried about it you could probably rig up something to stop it from bouncing and a bit easier on the seals. They are commercially available for dirt bikes but easy enough to make your own...

too bad really we pay about $150 not sure how much it is to add theft.

oops it appears they do not cover Ontario... OASIS Outdoor Adventure & Sport Insurance Solutions Inc. is the author and manager for the Got Toys insurance program for quads, snowmobiles and trail bikes, now operating in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. We are in the process of obtaining regulatory authority in Alberta, PEI and possibly Newfoundland.

Oasis partners with OFTR in Ontario... wouldn't hurt to ask for a quote.

Same deal here in NS we need to have liability insurance to drive off of our own private land. When they made the change to legislation there were actually no companies that would give a kid motorcycle insurance (liability) so I worked with Oasis, Loyds of London, and the NS government to have Oasis bring an insurance product into our market to meet the legislation - it took 3 years. Theft insurance was a nice benefit of this because before that you would have to insure your kids dirt bike as a road motorcycle to insure it for theft. You could have a $5k mountain bike covered for theft under your home policy but a CRF50 was a "vehicle" so could not be covered for theft. Steve - just to be clear Oasis does not provide free insurance for anybody... just a good company to work with. When I call them to add another landowner to the existing policy (for hosting events) I can typically get a certificate in a day. There is no additional charge for adding new venues anywhere in Canada and most landowners I work with enjoy knowing they are covered. There are some that don't care but as an organizer I do like knowing I am personally covered.

It really depends on your situation personally if my house burns down and I lose my bike it will be the last thing I am thinking about. Given there are only a handful of trials bikes in Nova Scotia I don't see a big threat of theft... although you never know. Liability is worth having if you ride off of your own property. I have found that Oasis is great and they insure all the WTC events ($5M event liability) so supporting a company that supports trials in Canada is a good thing in my books... they can provide all perils if your situation is such that it would make you feel better insured for those sorts of things. Basically comes down to personal choice and how you feel about insurance in general.

It may look effortless in videos but if you look closely you will see the rear mudguard is typically touching the rear wheel before take off the only way that happens is if you put a fair amount of effort into the pegs. Just like jumping from a stand still without a bike you need to squat down pretty hard if you want to get a lot of lift up... if that makes sense. As mentioned above it is also a matter of hitting the obstacle with the front wheel as this helps in compressing the bike before lift off so it is more than just the power in your legs.