mich lin

On the topic of mid level European riders coming winnig the US championship. I'm all for it! I have heard a lot of complaining however from the local fans on that topic. Let's be honest, Geoff would have a lot more titles if the two European riders had not participated in the US championship those few years. Some don't like that! It does seem unfair that we allow them to participate in our national title but then they ban us from their national and European championship.

Ishy, Nigel and everyone, we all agree that money fuels motorsports! It's tough to mount a local, national or world championship effort without support and cash. Been there and done that a bunch, so I'm no novice to that subject! What is unique in the USA system is older men getting importer support! I doubt that in the UK or Spain we will find 45, 50 or 60 year old men getting sponsorship for a national championship. In that respect the USA is very unique in how the importers spred around their rider support. I would tend to believe in nations like Spain, France, Italy, Japan and in GB the top championship riders and some up and coming youngsters would get all the sponsor support. While in the USA the over the hill gang recieve just as much or more support from the importers as the youngsters, which is very unique to American trials because of all the age class championships. Don't blame me Ishy for the lack of participation in the US women's championship, Or their slide at the world championship. I've proposed a cure for that as well in my NATC proposal! We now have one American girl riding the series, and two Canadians! I've been trying to make headway for the ladies for a number of years by proposing moving the ladies title to the Youth Championship. That would greatly increase the oppertunity for lady riders to be part of the US championship.

Hey, Debbie just left so I'm unprotected again from posting, so here goes! My kid is on a 125cc machine and will be until the FIM allows him on the 250. I mention that only because the question was asked of me. We also have a ton of 125cc bikes here in SoCal for what it's worlth! The organization of a world round is good business, if done right! Donner has turned a good profit and that profit bought the PITS trials club a nice peice of land for future use. Wow, more cash can be good for us is that message! I imagine Ishy made some good dough organizaing his world round also, only he knows for sure but more power to him! The workman deserves a good payday! Anyone oraganizing trials like Ishy or Mr. Bill should have it be worth his while or they won't continue to do it. Love of sport only goes SOOOOOO FAR, then everything crashes to a halt without a payday. The most sobering point here has been the observation that only 5 riders contested the whole US men's championship! Let me add only 3 women contested the whole ladies championship. I'd bet $10 bucks that at least as many would contest the US 125cc championship. Nigel mirrored my feelings exactly with his overall view of the advantages of a 125cc national championship. I've simply never been able to express them as well in writing. He knows because he's seen the results in person, something we have not had the luxury of. The topic of excellence and honesty was also brought up. Clearly the persuit of excellence has evaporated in NATC trials competition, I've maintained that was by design by Dr Wagner for a long time. This is not a slam of the man but simply another interesting observation like only 5 riders doing the US championship. The facts are that the NATC series under Dr Wagner's plan has been a huge success acheiving the goals that they desired. 1) TO CREATE THE BEST SPORTSMEN COMPETITION IN THE WORLD 2) TO SURVIVE AS AN ORGANIZATION. In these two goals they have been an amazing success. What were the costs though! Simple, they sacrificed the US Pro riders and future world champions from the USA for the developement of an amazing sportsmen class. I believe that Dr Wagner should be proud of this acheivement, nobody else anywhere in the world has been able to produce such a thriving sportsmen national championship system. Who benifited? Why the NATC members did! They created a championship that they could compete in, have fun, win national titles for their age groups and recieve importer sponsorship for themselves and others who invested the time and energy into the NATC program. I understand that the NATC would be VERY hesitant to change this program and put in danger the excellent system they have created for themselves. If Americans start to take an interest in the world championship again. The realality of 45, 50 or 60 year old riders with importer sponsorship may disappear leaving them to have to buy their own bikes and parts again. Now this may be true if we think the PIE cannot grow bigger, so that everyone can have a slice. I believe that's the NATC's hidden fear, that they will lose what they have if the kids and Pro riders start getting more support from the importers and factories. I view the economy as a growing pie! One that if something is excellent it grows and provides for all. Today I believe that the sprotsmen nationals are excellent, the Pro, women championship and what's needed for future world championship contenders is not done with the same excellence. Why, because maybe the NATC fears that the pie is small and they will lose thier piece if the give the kids a peice. That in reality is the bottom line fear for the NATC and their resistance to change. Will the age group champions lose their importer support if attention is turned to the kids? The answer lies in this question, is the pie always the same size and more people will reduce the size of the pieces or does the pie grow with more people at the table?

Mr Bill Update, We have been in contact with Mr Bill about the loss of trialsland. He's looking at one place and we called him with another possibility, Willow Springs raceway! We spoke to management there on Friday face to face and they seemed interested. AHRMA has had trials events there along with their vintage roadraces. They own the whole back mountain which has some good rocks. The facilities are excellent and are about 1 hour from the San Fernando Valley. On the topic of cows! Cattle don't seem to mind trials bikes. We practice in between cattle, horses and mules all the time. They don't mind trials bikes one bit.

Thanks Ringo, for not making a snide remark. Just trying to be guided by the principles of honesty and excellence and how they apply in my personal life. My intention was to look at every section and attempt what I could. Everything was over my head in SoCal but I expected that on the big gripy rocks of Reed Valley. I'm sure you remember your go at the El Trial exhibitions sections there "Simply spectacular" Back east the going would get easier in the mudd to squeek a three but there was never that oppertunity. My entries were approved,then blocked at the last minute by the NATC for the last national rounds. My personal goals for the nationals were simple, to score championship points, have fun and learn by observing the current crop of pro riders. That would give me a better grasp of what we need to do to put our young riders back in world competition. Then come back in 06 and ride the 55 year old national championship totally prepared and in national mode. When the oppertunity for a TV job came up on the same day as the SoCal National there was a choice that had to be made. Either, not ride and work, two turn down the show which we can't really afford, three, try to do both. Which I did but it took it's toll on me, I was so tired that I really couldn't give the national my best effort. Still I consider the weekend a huge personal success! I learned a lot, had a blast, scored national championship points, got two kids out to the events that otherwise would not have gone, worked a 10 hour shift making a ton of money, checked a section at El Trial and believe they need the help and had a passion burning in my heart to go home and ride and train really hard for the next nationals. Isn't that what trials is all about? Having fun and getting some personal satisfaction out of the sport? This is not rocket science or searching for the cure for cancer! My riding the US championship was a personal objective. Something like a clubman wanting to compete at the Scottish Six Days trial on the same sections as the best riders in the world. It's fun first, then personal satisfaction!

Well the point I was trying to make was the parties with the Mexican nationals are REALLY loud, much louder than a trials bike. That noise is OK I guess! I've been to Hong Kong as well! I also work with a lot of people from Hong Kong and the mafia and gangs are REALLY bad there. In LA we face Mexican gangs, Chinese Gangs, the Bloods and Crips and the Vietnamese gangs. Then of course the standard old motorcycle gangs! I suppose we are lumped in with them? Most of them are Euro -American gangs, so they must be outlawed first. Andy, I need to be banned now! I just made a raceist statement.

Hmmmm, that was recycled footage if it was just on the tube! 2 wheeled tuesday came and did a story on Debbie a while ago. To answer your other question, we live in LA county, more in the city. The reason a lot of people moved out there is to ride on their own land like the McGrath family. The Oldars also moved from LA county near the LAX airport to Riverside county so they could practice at home. They own the land right next to reed valley, where El Trial and the SoCal nationals were run. It's really in the sticks but a great place for trials! WARNING, WARNING, WARNING! I know that most don't appriciate my stories, so read no farther if your bored or offended by them. So be warned and don't give me any flak after the warning! That means you Ringo! Clive! or anybody else who thinks I'm a disgrace to trials. I had a night film job between the two days of the SoCal nationals. My call time after the first day's national was back at Disney ranch North of LA at 6pm that night. If was for a Hallmark Hall of fame TV show called "Silver Bells" a Chicago christmas movie, so we came from the HEAT of the national to fake snow and freezing night tempatures for the filming. Hey, it made me think of citytrials. I knew it was about a 3 and one half hour drive back to town form the national trial site after I finished the first day's event, without traffic factoring in the Friday night traffic of LA. Which is horrendous! I managed to make it to work on time after riding the natioal. Then worked a 10 hour shift and made the 3 and one half hour drive back to the national before my Sat. start time. I even managed a little bit of sleep before the 2nd day of the national competition. I knew that the first day of the nationals, I only had enough time to ride the loop and punch 5s in order to finish in time to get to work. Then My plan was to look at the sections and attempt which ever one's I thought I might have a chance at getting through. As it turned out, I simply ran out of energy after the 7 Plus hour commute and the 10 hour work shift. So I only attempted the last section of the last day but not with a clear head or with maximum energy. My point of view of the SoCal nationals were this, I finished in the points both days. Had a blast AND successfully made a 7 plus hour commute between LA and the Oldar's place where the nationals were held. Plus worked a 10 hour shift the night between the trials. To me that is a GIGANTIC EFFORT almost a superhuman effort. Yes I would have liked to have had the energy to ride, commute, work, commute and ride in that time frame and put more effort into the sections. But I didn't! In retrospcet, I believe that I might be the only rider in US history to contest a US national, then work a full 10 hour shift, them come back and ride again the next day. To those who claim that I didn't make an effort at the nationals, I disagree with them! I beleive that I made a superhuman effort at the national championship and I'm very proud of what I managed to accomplish. If you disagree and think I'm a disgrace to the sport. We simply have a fundamental DNA differnce in our outlook on life. I'm proud of my national championship effort last year! Just as proud of it as my three national titles. Being the oldest rider ever in the Pro class is somethng of an accomplishment also. There it's off my chest!

Hey, don't go there with me! Brokeback-Ringo maybe?

Sorry but this was a loaded question guys. I was hoping to lead into this! We should also consider adopting the Spanish and UK age classes and displacement fot the US youth nationals, besides simply adding a 125cc national championship. That is if we want to give US youngsters the best possible shot at a world title. The A, B, C, D class is much simpler, mixes up the kids better and in my opinion makes for better riders. I believe that Spanish and UK results may tend to support my view of a better way to run the US youth national foremat. The US ladies championship would also work well here. The best young men are tough competition for our best Women! An example being, I doubt that either of the Williams sisters could beat young schoolboy Smage. It would create some interesting press and spectator interest to face off North America's women with the best young up and coming male riders. This competiton between them would push both groups, creating a win/win situation of a higher level of competition. Moving the girls to the youth nationals would also allow them to ride whatever men's class they wanted at the NATC nationals, again pushing them to be better than they are now.

sirhc, let me tell you how I look at his problem! But hey, consider that I'm a radical. We too have taken home great joy from Mr. Bill's events! Maybe a moment of silence is in order? There is that new ordinance that was passed last week by the county that puts ultra strict motor noise limits on what was legal riding on private land, which you mentioned. What McGrath's dad was quoted as saying was " we now can't even start our motorcycles. They have a good size ranch on which they have had an MX training track for their famous son. The county supervisiors also passed the rule that not more than one motorcycle at a time can be run if it's on private property to boot. That means El Trial is also dead at Reed Valley or any future nationals! So these people really covered their anti-motorcycle bias with a one, two punch! You people outside this state might also consider, what they do in the socialist people's republic of Califorina, they do in your back yard soon in the rest of the nation. That's a free of charge, warm and fuzzy thought for your enjoyment! What's amazing to me in all this, is that this will not help stop illegal trail riding that's such a problem. It only makes illegal what was once legal private ownership of motorcycle riding areas. Now for the radical part of my veiw of all this. When they don't allow kids to have a place to be legal and play with their bikes and in the case of most trials kids, their family. Where do they go? It seems to me that they would rather have the kids get involved in gangs and drugs than ride! Sorry again, I'm cinical but hey, this tears out the kids hearts and where do they turn for that release, gangs and crime? Now if you think that's harsh, consider this incident! My son and a few of his gymnastics friends were making a student film in a local Santa Monica mountains state park. A ranger came and prohibited them from shooting their video without a professional filming permits! Which requires them to pay thousands of dollars in fees and have a forest ranger, fireman and police during the video shoot. These were kids, the oldest about 18, most being around 14 or younger! Yet this same park system has no problem with illegal immigrants having very loud parties and pick nics at the same location. Why? Not sure! I believe that if kids are not given an outlet for their enthusiasm, they will turn to gangs, drugs and mischief, including graffiti and crime. What better for youngsters and their families than to ride trials together? I'm not sure if anything is, do we turn to organized baseball, basketball or soccer now? No, these politicians would rather that the families break apart and the kids turn to gangs, guns, drugs, violence and crime. The government can make money off that! That's my thoughts on this topic, Sorry if they are a bit radical.

Ishy, I don't believe that I ever mentioned that I really enjoyed the time we spent together setting up the line 4 youth sections at the Donner West Coast Youth nationals. Let's do it again someday!

Good point Nigel, it's good to see Yamaha or at least a Yamaha motor back into trials. As a team though I still like what I see at HRC/Montesa. Say Nigel, would you be so kind as to explain the UK youth classes for us and how they work. What ages and skill levels do they include? I konw I'm totally ignorant of how it done in your fine country.

T Y P I N G slow Alan, I'm a slow reader also, so I can relate. I still get the impression that you don't believe me! Which makes me sad, even a little hurt! I think if you were in my position you would feel the same way. If someone accused you of making false claims you would also feel hurt, if you didn't! Being accused of something that's really wrong that you didn't do cuts deep into the the human spirt. That's why I was so angry with you, forgive me! Even though you still don't seem to believe me that I never claimed to be world champ, I forgive you Alan. Who cares what the national news thinks or says anyway?

A growing sport is so easy! Everyone in the sport simply be so excited about it that they bring one new person in each year. In one year the sport doubles in size, then every year after that the same thing occurs, it doubles again and again and again. That only happens however when people are seeking excellence like nsaqam.

Ishy, I also hate to admit that I agree with you! What is this board coming too? Could this be the end times? How about this John, we reframe the subject. We "both" simply agree with Lampkin and his veiw of what he saw teaching here in the USA and not each other. That way we don't look like we are agreeing on this topic only agreeing with Lampkin. Whatduyousay? One thing I noticed at the Lampkin school was how unteachable the young American upper class riders were during the training camp! Lampkin tried to cover the fundamentals with them and they acted like they were insulted he was even covering those techniques. Did they have an understanding of them? No, not a good one anyway! Your onto something here Ishy, several factors seem to be coming into play here. One, the sections have become less technical and more hop, then splatter. These types of sections tend to be, clean or five. I noticed the similarity of almost all the sections at the SoCal Pro sections when I rode there. The hardest section of the trial was the last one which took the most points. It was a more traditional big climb and drop, then climb, drop and turn section! It was the one section I attempted because it was not dangerous but took the most points off the field. While the other sections had mostly big gaps and splaters, sections that I knew were over my head, yet they took few points off the best riders. Yet the last section that was more techical, took the most points was the one section that I had the courage or sense to attempt. Taking points off the best riders in the world or nation, yet keeping them safe for lesser riders is not hard. Look at the Scottish, everyone of the 240 entries ride the same sections. Yet they manage to take points off everyone, from local clubmen to the best riders in the world. How do they do that? By using technical sections! Your right on this subject Ishy.

To answer your question Alan, if I had my choice of ANY factory team to ride and compete with for my kid. It would be HRC Honda/Montesa! I feel that they are a great team and support their riders very well. True Martin Belair is mad at me, maybe for good reason, maybe not but he does not have a team in the USA anyway and I doubt if he ever will. If the FIM allows 250s 4ts to compete in the 125 class, there is little doubt that the HRC/Montesa would be the best bike in the class and that's the bike we would ride even without US importer support. The facts are that today and in the forseeable future the FIM will not allow 250cc 4T machines into the 125cc world championship. The whole purpose of a 125cc national championship is to comply with world standards. To bring 250cc 4Ts into a US 125cc national championship without the FIM doing it first is going right back in the wrong direction we came from. It's simple, no 4T 250cc bikes in the world or US 125cc championship! If they do, we will be the first to line up and buy one!

I didn't write that Alan! I didn't tell them that. I thought you where quoting the news and not something I wrote or told you. Does that answer your question Alan? This is the same national medea that in the 70s put a put an incendary bomb under a Chevy pickup to make it explode for a news story about possible gas tank explosions on the brand. They were proved wrong in court! And the same national news that faked the story about President Bush 42 avoiding national guard service. Simply you cannot believe everything you see on TV or in the papers. Your a good guy Alan but for some reason you hold me to a standard the is not fair or one that you could even live up too. You claim that I fail to answer questions but then do the same thing yourself. You said I claimed to be world champ, I never did, it was someone else making that claim not me. Yet you blamed me for their mistake.

It takes two for a soap! If Alan won't do his part we have no drama! Alan has claimed that I fail to answer questions when I'm asked. It has never been my intent to dodge any questions. I'm simply giving Alan or anyone else a chance to pin me down point blank. Again, it has never been my intention to dodge anything. The other bone I have to pick with Alan is he stated not long ago that I claimed to be world champ! I've never claimed to be world champion, that's why I'm asking him point blank to pose these questions to me. I get the impression he is calling me a liar. Maybe I'm reading his posts wrong but clarity is more important than agreement. If we disagree on something, fine! Let's simply be very clear on what his positions are and let mine be very clear. Then lets analize the merits of either position. If somehow anyone got the impression I was claiming to have been world champion, I'm ver sorry. That was never my claim or intention. My principles are simple, excellence and honesty.

nsaqam, I'm sitting here with my leg hurting from my 1999 MX crash! I often joke that I should have bought the Red Ferrari insted of the darn big bore YZ 4 stroke MX machine, it would have been a cheaper mid life crisis. You both make some interesting points, in fact I was there when Bruce won the World Title in the LA Olympic stadium in 1980. It was cool! The US Speedway riders still have a good impact on the world championship, unlike US trials riders. In fact one of my buddies was on the US team not to long ago. It's hard to argue with nsaqam's point about not needing fancy tracks for trials. Plus our noise advantage, or should I say lack of it compared to speedway or MX. Also, our sport is just about the safest form of motorcycling on or off the pavement that there is. I know, my leg hurts right now but not from trials. From MX!

Alen, I can easily answer you 250cc four stroke question running against the 125cc 2 strokes like US MX. If they allow a 250cc four stroke at the 125cc world trials championship, fine let them in. But they don't so those 250cc four stroke riders would contest the US High School class! If the FIM allows the 250cc fours strokes into the 125cc world championship. Then they should be allowed but not until they do. Our goal should be to comply with the rest of the world. What they do, we need to do, except we should strive to keep the very successful age group championships. With the goal of someday having enough pro class/125cc champ entries to split the sportsmen off from the US national championship. So that their series is seperate from the Pro/125cc US championship.

Nigel, swithcing gears which I'm famous for, what are the youth classes in GB? How does the ages break down in A B C and the rest? I don't think many people understand how your youth nationals work. I know I don't! Alan, my proposal to the NATC dropped two classes not added, thought I answered that question! Also the proposal had harder sections than now because of the finals. Yet allowed a larger field of a wider cross section of rider ability because of using the sportsmen sections for the qualifing event. Then only the best 5 125cc riders moved to the world class sections. Hope that clears up my proposal. Any other questons?

That's some fine input guys! Just to clarify the use of afternoon qualifed sections, that's not my idea! The women's world trials championship and the men's world indoor uses that foremat. I simply lifted the concept from there. The El Trial De Espana has used spectator friendly exhibition sections for years. The only differnce is that they require ALL the top class riders to ride those sections. In the world indoor foremat and the women's world championship foremat, only the best few get to transfer to the tough final sections. The rest of the field becomes part of the gallery.

The proposal for a US 125cc championship did not include youth riders limited to only 125cc bikes, we would still have the 2 high school classes for riders on full size machines. It also did not put an age limit on 125cc riders, anyone could ride any size bike they wished in the NATC series. Including an adult on a 125cc machine! One thought, riders on 125cc machines could figure into both the high school class of their choice AND the 125cc national championship. Now that would be interesting and benifit the competition for everyone.

Copemech, is it really fair for anybody to define what the youth nationals are? Wouldn't it be best to leave their meaning to each individual rider? Some kids may have dreams of being national, world or Olympic champion while others may only want to have a good time. Let the kids decide! Being honest, they need to fill the needs of ALL our kids! Both the kids who only want to have a good time and those who dream of Olympic, world and national championship glory. For the adults in charge to neglect any child's dreams and desires is failing the next generation and the sport. Just my opinion!

Alan, thanks for answering the question. Yes Bill does a west coast national with 3 days of competition but it dosn't count for the US championship. Only the 3 days at the trials training center are counted. Which makes the trip to the west coast not required for you easterners. Not once has one of your riders come out west, yet we always come to your event. Bill has made an effort to procede with two ideas for the youth nationals. One trading off every other year so the left coast riders don't have to do the longest driving every year. It seemed like a FAIR plan! The other idea was counting all 6 days of competition, both east and west coast, creating a series! Either plan is a good one. I for one don't mind people jumping in on this conversation. Especally the new people in the sport, I find them refreshing, honest and full of enthusiasm. Lastly Alan, the reason I started this tred is simple. You have made claim after claim that I refuse to answer questions. Here's your chance to ask me point blank without me being able to duck them. Put up or shut up!