mich lin

That's why you pi$$ me off Alan, you are asked strait up for clear concise questions and you come up with some BS like that. Well, let me ask you a strait question if you won't ask me one! Why can't Mr Bill host the Youth Nationals every other year? So we west coasters don't have to do all the driving! It's thousands of miles between SoCal and the Trials training center. Why can't you guys drive one year and we the next? That seems fair!

No doubt that A world championship indoor event piggybacked with SX or some other BIG motorcycle event would be cool, maybe Daytona, Sturgus or at the Vegas Endurocross? McGraths event has the biggest purse of all time for SX 500G's, which makes that event interesting. Of course they need to add TV coverage! We did have an indoor trial in the USA, twice! It didn't have the top world championship riders only the NATC Pros. Year one it was popular, year two they had the same show, without much advertizing and near christmas so the event didn't build from the provious year. After that the organizers cut and ran because of a big finatual loss! I've often thought about that as well but it takes time and $$$$$. A big purse would help draw the stars and of course world championship indoor points. Maybe the Cycle World motorcycle shows would also be a good piggyback?

Ken, you have impressed me! You carry around a lot of common sense. Which is sometimes not so common. Keep posting!

Alan, loved your questions about my positions on the 125cc national championship. Thanks for asking them! Please ask me some more so I can clear up any other misconceptions about what my positions are. You also mentioned we agree on some things! What are they? My main two guiding principles are this in a nutshell. Excellence and honesty for myself, the sport , the organizers, officals, manufacturers, importers and our best riders and national teams.! I'm sorry if it appeared that I didn't answer questions, that was never my intension. Simply bad writing and reading skills.

Yes, I checked at El Trial this past year! I also helped Mr. Bill with the kids class a ton at ITS, being the checker and kid wrangler for him for a couple of seasons. I also checked at the AHRMA national in Ohio in 2004 but maybe that dosn't count, they give first place points for checking. I helped establish the British American cup trial in Northern Califorina, plus came up with the idea for the Geritol Trophy Trial and organized the first 3 or 4 of them. Which is a trial for riders over 35 years of age. While I was riding for Bultaco, my girlfriend and myself organized events for extra cash, sort of like what Mr. Bill does today to supliment his retirement income. The Trial De state was also an event that Mr. Bill, myself and Trials comp organized. It piggybacks onto the youth nationals. Overall, I've organized about 20 trials! Also I Was one of the founding members of the NATC. How the NATC came about was I came to Dr Wagner with some concerns about the direction the sport was going. He took the challenge to do something positive and organized the first NATC meeting at Yamaha USA. Where we created the rules, choose the scedule and gave birth to the first NATC national series. I've also conducted week long training seminars at Donner, conducted lots of schools and have given lots of personel instruction, Including Dr Wagner helping him win his first national senior trials title.

The NATC is fairly good at adding classes, that would not be a problem. In reality, I've proposed dropping some classes! We would drop the ladies class at the Nationals to be picked up at the youth nationals. Then Expert and Expert sportsmen would be combined with the Pro class. So the sum loss of my proposal was add one, drop three. For an overall loss of two classes, which is always a tough sell to the NATC, dropping classes. Who would ride? Your guess is as good as mine but perhaps I view the sport differntly than you "which is not a slam, just an observation." There is already a Women's and 125cc World Title, there is no world title for our age group classes, maybe there needs to be, but lets not go down that road now! That's the differnce between the ladies and 125cc national championship in my view. There is a world title for these two catagories and they are not really sportsmen classes, they are major championships sanctioned by the FIM. To treat them as just another sportsmen class is a BIG mistake in my opinion. Now, how do we provide the best progression for our ladies and 125cc riders to contest the exsisting world championship? That's really the question that I'd like to find the answer for. We do know for a fact, that switching back and forth between a 290 and a 125 displacement bike is tough, if a rider must ride at a world championship level. We also know for a fact that a lady rider must ride at a US pro level to beat Laia Sanz! So a sound approach for getting our youngsters ready for a 125cc world round might be offernig them a true national title to stay on a 125cc bike. Likewise for the ladies, we MUST offer them a way to work their way up through the men's NATC national ranks, something they can't do know and still be US ladies champion. I beleive that some people view the ladies national championship as just another sportmen class! It's not, it's the offical US Championship for women athletes in trials. It's the riders who will be on the US Olympic and TDN teams. That's also what the 125cc national title would be, the youngsters who plan to take on the world through the stepping stone of the 125cc world title. Then if they have success there, onto the World Wide One, "World Trials Championship" riding with Raga, Fugi and Lampkin. I believe we simply need to figure out how to get our best ladies to ride up through the men's classes and into Pro at the US nationals. While still maintaining their placing at the women's championship, which is the only way to keep their sponsors happy. Likewise for the kids, how do we keep them on 125cc bikes and on par with the rest of the world? My guess is by offering them an Offical ranking and possible 125cc national championship. Again, simply my guess and opinion on how to solve these two big problems.

What line? We need to start somewhere! Not sure exactly what is the perfect solution for the 125cc national championship, because we now have Smage, Darrow,Webb and a lot of riders who would qualify for the 125cc world championship already on full size bikes. I doubt that they all would want to come back to 125's unless they would rather be 125cc national champion insted of 5th or 6th in the current US top pro class. That's an individual choice each rider would have to make for themselves, depending on whether they desired to ride the 125cc world title or concentrate only on beating Geoff at the US championship. To start somewhere, have them ride the sportsmen line! After all we are targeting the youngsters, not the established young Pro riders. Then the transfer bonus sections the best 5 ride, those sections could be at the European and 125cc world championship levels. This approach of easy and hard sections serves an interesting purpose. It forces the best riders to concentrate on the easy sections as well as perform on the tough final sections. It is common for great riders to make stupid mental mistakes on easy stuff, by combining easy and tough sections, our 125cc championship riders must do both. It creates a big feild of riders yet does not put the youngest in danger. The transfer final sections ridden by the best 5 will however challenge our best 125cc riders because they are on par with 125cc world round sections. After running the series a year, we can fine tune the process! Maybe add harder sections in the preliminary sections but again we have to start somewhere. Who rides? Anybody that wants to ride a 125cc machine! I realize the purpose of the 125cc national championship is to groom our youngsters for the 125cc world championship. Which is now the primary steppiing stone to the world trials championship. To be consistant, we will not require youngsters to stay on 125cc machines. To also be consistant, there is no reason we cannot have older lady riders or men also have a go in the 125cc national championship. The main reason for the need of a 125cc US title is to give riders a reason to say on the small bike. Now they don't, except perhaps for dreams of future world competition. Any young rider staying back on a 125cc bike is now at a disadvantage at the NATC nationals. The 125cc national title would simply give the more incentive to remain on a 125cc bike that is a disadvantage for NATC competition. Yet the 125cc bike is the best bike if a youngster hopes to contest the 125cc world title, the logical step to the world trials championship. Simply my opinion!

Kinell, Of course I am and I have! Not everyone is a saint.

I'm not worried about people cheating, Alan! nsaqam is right on the money on how to handle any problems with displacement. Cheating was one of the resistence points brought up at the NATC meeting against the 125cc national championship proposal. Another was that Honda/Montesa does not build a 125cc bike which keeps Montesa out of that championship, which some thought was unfair to eliminate a brand from a US title.

Sorry Alan my post was poorly written and missed the point I was trying to make. You did do an excellent job of making a personal slam though. OUCH! I'll be honest, our personalities don't mesh very well but I like you and your a great perrson. Since I failed at my honest attempt to ask you some questions, you ask me the ones I failed to answer in the past! Then I'll attempt to not botch that up with my poor writing skills and rapid progression on topics. If you could hold back the insults, that would be nice also! I write even worse when I'm p****d OFF. But, if that's impossible, so be it. Maybe me being mad at you and Isherwood all the time impars my writing skills? Or maybe I just suck at writing? I know your positions Alan, you want to keep the Youth Nationals like they are and where they are at! You and I disagree on both the Adult AND Youth national foremats, which is OK! I simply get the impression that even discussing the issue of change is TABOO in some circles.

Neo, Ringo is Ringo! I give him credit for two things- 1) He made an honest attempt at the indoor Endurocross in Vegas. He may have been out of his league but he jumped in and gave it his all. 2) He's a fun loving passionate guy!

Brian R, Sorry I'll come to a venue not the US world round only if the purse is BIG enough. I can't let you guys sell all those tickets and Ringo and I put on the show and take the hits, without a piece of the action. While you guys rake in the all cash. I propose a minimum purse of One Million US dollars for the winner, $500 Grand for the loser. Otherwise it's the US world round where Ringo and I can score world chapmionship points. Lasty, get your daughter training, take her to the world round and let her SEE Laia ride. The women's world championship is NO joke. I draw the line at poking fun at our lady athletes!

Hey, one more thing Alan! I SCORED at the US Championship last year, two 8th places. What's your best ever Pro class finish bud? Also buddy boy, if only 13 international riders show up like last year at the US world round, Ringo and I will also SCORE World Championship points. The facts are, if you don't make the effort to enter, you can't be in the game. Half of life is just showing up! At least Ringo and I are willing to enter the US world round! Who are you to say we are not qualified, isn't this a free country anymore?

Sorry Alan, If Ringo and I can't be inside the tapes at the world round as the only US entries I'm out! Besides that's why Ringo was tossed out last time, inside the tapes without permission. Letting him in the tapes this time is the only garentee that he won't get tossed out again, which would ruin this shootout you guys are planning!

Alan, let me ask you these questions. Is your position that the kids need more competition in larger groups to ride against and less classes on any size bike? If so, Then do you agree with me that at the youth nationals we drop all the age classes and go to fewer A,B and C classes or some mix like that. Grouping kids into larger classes where they mix ages more between the riders? That would eliminate the problem we have now with kids who contest the youth nationals every year and never ever compete against kids a year older or younger than them. By enlarging the age groups these same kids would mix it up. Is that your position, modify the youth nationals?

Alan, you claim that I refuse to answer questions, why don't you ask then of me point blank insted of always going into a long tyrate that makes it difficult for me to follow your point. You also constantly misrepresent my positions! Thankyou for agreeing with me on some points, what are they exactly. Lastly, in an ideal world, I believe that all the classes that the NATC has are great. I would not get rid of any them BUT if we had the entries, I'd have them ride another day or venue, maybe even have a seperate Pro and sportsmen series altogether like MX has.

El Trial style is where everyone rides the normal trial. Then while the officals are figuring the lower class results the top Pro riders do an extra 5 world class sections. El Trial is always well attended and the exhibition sections are always lined with huge crouds. This makes a big gallery for the press pictures, that includes the riders of the lower classes who are now spectators. Who now can't watch the best ride with the current national structure and of course the people who came to just watch the trial. El Trial sections are usally in one area making it possible to watch the action without hiking all over hill and dale. Riding before a croud also puts added pressure on the top riders, making them better! Plus it allows world class sections for the top 5 men, without putting the rest of the riders in danger, yets puts pressure on them to make the cut. Of course training camps are also important, as mentioned! But who will be the trainer? Will it be the blind leading the blind or do we bring someone from Europe who is known as a great trainer? Of course we need trainers from Europe! Just a few weeks ago Lewisport brought the offical ACU British national trainer to the USA. He did seminars at a couple locations and it was fantastic. It was amazing how fast he pointed out the weak points in some youngsters riding techniques. They were good at the zips and zaps big stuff but didn't know how to get the bike to hook up and get traction. He pointed out the flaws it the American riding technique almost instantly. Now that was a training camp! Not like a bunch of kids getting together and riding the same sections using the same techniques over and over again. Simply practicing their bad habits. Remember it took Europeans coming to America to put US MX on the map. US Trials needs the MX mindset, which is the BIG TENT mentality! There has to be room for everyone, the sportsmen forever riders and the families that want to provide the oppertunity for their kid to be the next RC. In trials you find that people often want to hold things back, simply because they are not willing to make the sacrifices needed to have thier kid become someone like RC. In other words they want the benifits of being a top rider without the sacrifices of buying the bikes, Doing the training, pulling the wrenches and traveling all over the place. Simply, if trials goes to the Olympics, they are happy and proud to have their kids march into the stadium. But they will not make the sacrifices needed to put them on the medals podium. That's unAmerican!

No contest longhorn, your kids are not on 125cc machines, Our are! You guys need to get with the program with the rest of the world.

Hey I'm in! In the world championship class only of course. Hey if only 13 international riders show up like last year, Ringo and I will score world championship points.

Well put nsaqam and Steve, you both are 100% on track. Steve, maybe you are unaware of one point, I did make a presentation through my NATC rep at the last NATC meeting, which was the proper order of things. I would have rather presented it myself but that was impossible, I'm not the rep from our club. The chairman of the NATC asked me to present a program that would provide the stepping stones to the world championship I've been talking about here, a system that would support the young tigers. Yet he damanded that the new system not detract from the sportsmen nationals, which is a very tough order and something nobody has been able to figure out anytime before. In other words he asked me to put up or shut up which I did. I spent a great deal of time and energy on this presentation, so my participation has been far more than just on this board, it has been in the halls of the NATC itself. It takes a great amount of time to create a proposal that solves the lack of stepping stones and other problems in the US series hindering more American world champions. Then even more time to bring my NATC rep up to speed on the concept so he could pitch it. It included the absolutly vital 125cc national title, contested on the sportsmen course. With 5 final sections for the best 5 riders only, run El Trial foremat of exhibition sections before a large gallery of spectators. It also proposed an expanded Pro class combining the exsisting Pro, Sportsmen Expert and Expert classes on an easier pro course with 5 final sections of world class caliber, again only for the top 5 riders, El Trial Style. Which made for greater spectating pleasure and press presentation. The final factor so important for another world champion was greatly upping the pressure on the US pros, which is what they need most! It also didn't forget the ladies, it moved the ladies championship to the Youth nationals, which would allow more ladies to compete and hold an national number. Also something very important, would allow the best ladies to move up into the higher NATC national men's classes. Which they need to do, if they hope to ride with Laia Sanz, who is at a US Pro Class level. Only by riding with the boys will US women move back to the top of the world. This proposal would have brung the needed changes to the series to create a similar atmosphere to what we had before in the 1970s that produced world round points earning American trials riders and two American world champions. Bernie Schriber and Debbie Evans.

Well, the truth will set you free! People simply need to know the facts about the NATC. They need to know that Dr Wagner and his old gauard at the NATC didn't want American World Round contenders. Now that this information is public for the first time, everyone can make the choice themselves. Do we want a winning TDN team and great sportsmen competition at the same time? Or do we stay with the Dr. Wagner plan of a small sport and the USA not haveing world round contenders? It's a clear choice, we can expand the tent for the NATC/AMA brand and have both or we can continue on the Dr. Wagner path of sportsmen only at the US nationals. People needed to know why we couldn't compete with the rest of the world, now they know, it was by design by the NATC. I doubt that even the AMA knew what they did! Perhaps someday the AMA will, I beleive the AMA would love a winning USA Trials team. Not to mention a winning Olympic trials team if that comes to be.

Trialsurfer, Chris's World points where legitimate! Don't let anyone or anything take that great effort away from him. Have a look at phototrial, he sits atop a lot of really big names in the year end finals. HE WILL BE VERY PROUD OF THAT IN YEARS TO COME. If nobody shows, that's their fault, they didn't make the effort, Chris did. At the first ever US world round, tons of middle level European world round riders showed up looking for points, knowing full well that they would have it easier in the USA, they knew the game. Show up and score if nobody else will! I'm proud of Chris for making an effort to support us American fans and bringing home the first male world championship points since the mid 1980s for the USA. I didn't see Geoff making that effort! The moral is this, riders show up if they think they can score points, if they don't make an effort, that's their fault. Also remember the 3 rules of championship trials I coined here for you all. Score points, have fun or make a ton of money, learn something everytime you ride. Then you are a success! Part of my riding the US Pro championship last year was to prove these points! Just show up and you can score if nobody else does, which I did and captured two 8th places. The 3 rules state, Have fun, which I did or make a lot of money, which I didn't. Learn something, which I surely did. Score points, which I did , I was a winner by the 3 rules. Then the NATC pulled the rug from under me, just like they have Chris at this years world round. US trials riders have forgotten so much about world championship trials. My job back in the 70s was to push everyone and set the standard, which I did and we created a culture that created a world champion. I never figured that I would be in that same position 30 years later but I'm willing to push everyone again if the NATC/AMA want an American team and culture that can produce world champions. It really gets down to the Dr. Wagner plan for American trials! Does the AMA/NATC insist on keeping on the same path, which is to keep American riders out of the world championship, like they have done this year. Or do they change and expand the NATC/AMA brand to include world championship contenders as well as the excellent sportsmen competiton they now provide? So you see trialsurfer, it's the NATC/AMA who must step up here. Without their cooperation we will continue to have our young tigers like Chris, Smage and Louise held down compared to the rest of the world's riders. It's clearly their doing!

We need the NATC because they are linked with the AMA. The AMA is linked with the FIM so I support the FIM, AMA and the NATC. I also believe that the NATC has done a great job building the US sportsmen Championship. Expanding the brand to include a winning TDN team and American world trials champion is the logical next step for expanding the AMA/NATC brand. Think of it like this, insted of joining a third political party an interested person should join one of the exsisting ones. Then work to change the politcal party to include those people who are not now being represented in it. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater, lets work within the AMA to get Americans back on top!

Well, I do have one BIG advantage here, I lived through the process of how we put Americans on the podium in the 70's for world trials. Then saw first hand how the US national federation by design dismantled all the hard work of people like Fred Belair, Senior Bulto, US Honda, US Yamaha, Bultaco, OSSA and Montesa. Of course we can rebuild that winning atmosphere again with the support of the AMA/ NATC and the American trials public! Here's how, A proper steping stone plan was presented at the last NATC meeting that would have kept ALL the current sportsmen classes AND provided the stepping stones needed to move some kids to Europe. But it was REJECTED by the national federation! It simply stated, We must put our best younsters on 125cc machines right away, then give them a good reason to keep them on them until they reach the age the European kids move up to 250cc machines. The kids also need pressure! I believe the plan presented to the NATC/AMA would have created that pressure, which is why the kids of the 70s became so good. They pushed each other, rode under extreme pressure and then in the end, beat the world. I also believe as a businessman, that investing in American kids without the support and cooperation of the AMA/NATC is fruitless and a very bad investment. Today I also beleive that even Wiltz Wagner may realize that the grand NATC experiment of sportsmen only at the US Championship has failed. Yes we have created the best senior riders on the planet with the NATC/AMA experiment but what good has that done? Without a senior TDN we cannot prove that point. The intellegent approach for the future would be putting our Men's and women's TDN teams in the world champoinship hunt again against Spain, Japan and Britan. Then promoting a Senior TDN challenging the rest of the world. Proving that the NATC sportsmen program is the best in the world. To fail to put American youngsters back in the hunt for TDN Gold and World Championship points would look dumb to the rest of the world however. A balanced approach of supporting the sportsmen national riders like we do now and also the young tigers makes better sense today. The NATC/AMA by supporting BOTH the sportsmen and the young tigers would create a renewed and energized atmosphere in American Trials. Which would spark outside the community interest, even if it's only from the MX, Enduro and road bike crouds. Now we live in an invisible sport! I simply propose an avenue to bring our sport back out into the daylight.

I was told point blank by Wiltz Wagner with Bud Mylerburg and Dave Russel sitting with him that the NATC didn't want professional riders anymore. The national federation felt that professional riders where bad sportsmen and dragged down the fun factor for the rest of the riders wanting to ride well organized national events for fun. They didn't like the atmosphere the factory teams brought to the sport, which was strictly business and a very high level of riding! We also had many conversations about trials growth back then at the NATC. Some felt that if the sport got bigger a "bad element" would creep into trials. Those of us who worked for the importers disagreed but the club representative won out over the industry people and US trials became the secret, small amatuer sport it is today in the USA. That's why our sport is small, our riders are not able to compete with the rest of the world and the US championship is dominated by the 17 differnt age classes. In the past it was 2 classes, then one over 35 senior class was added, then one more, then one more then one more until we now have about 17 different age classes winners out of around one hundred entries at a nationals. A small sport, with no professional riders was all part of the Wiltz Wagner plan for USA trials. I disagreed with the plan back then, I still do today. Now at this moment, I'm not trying to convince anyone that a bigger sport in the USA would be better. Likewise, at this second I'm not selling the idea of the need for Americans to win the TDN and score world round points. I simply think people need to know WHY our sport is in the position it is today. Small, with no progression to the world championship, It was by design of Dr. Wagner, who the Wagner Cup US world round is named after.