mich lin

Good questions Ishy! Let me see if I can address your observations? Indeed the proposals were mine, not having been able to present them myself I'm not totally sure why they might have been rejected. I would have prefered to present their benifits myself but that was not possible. Be aware that I only submitted them after being asked to provide a patern by the NATC head for what could be done be make our best riders more compeditive on a world stage. Also I was asked not to use my own name but use the ATA as the presenter. Which I did, after their total rejections, I felt there was no harm in revealing that the proposals were mine or bringing their benifits or faults out into the community for discussion. Lets be VERY clear, the non-transfering 125cc riders would ride the same course as all the rest of the sportsmen riders, so they would get plenty of riding and a full trial. The non-transfering Pros would also get as much riding as they do right now, only on a little easier course. The finals would be bonus sections for the very best of the best in each of the Two Championship classes! These sections could be made world class, which is not possible now on the normal NATC national course, Otherwise the sections are too difficult for a lot of the entry. So you see Ishy, nobody would be riding only half a trial. The idea is to create a Win / Win situation, the best Pros and best 125cc riders get world class sections in the finals. Which if we did that at a normal NATC national most of the entry would not enjoy the trial. Rememer the sportsmen and the rest of the entry enjoy the same great events they now have. Only the best of the best get the extra additional secitons. This allows the non transfering 125cc and Pro riders have a chance to build up their skills and confidence on that easier course at their own pace. So someday they can transfer into the finals if they have the talent or they can simply drop back to the sportsmen ranks. Next Question- I tend to agree with you about the World Championship entries and their new support classes. The facts are simply both the World Championship and most National championships now have just a few entries. Which is sad! I feel it's the introduction of the stop and hop rules that is the problem there. Look to the Scottish Six days, run with the classic rules, it's the most popular trial in the world. It turns away entries, yet everybody rides the same sections, from world champions to clubmen. Yet everybody is VERY happy! That's the reason for the low world championship entries, STOP AND HOP. The 125cc World Championship for good or bad does allow non-Europeans for the first time to make an impact on the world championship scene. I doubt that the FIM or the continentals will allow us to return to the classic rules for the world championship, which would bring the big entries of the 1970s back again. Your observations about the European clubs being more youth friendly are well taken! Can anything be done to fix that here in the USA? I tend to beleive that adding a 125cc national title would help create a youth friendly atmosphere.

bikespace, your instints were right, it's simply how the US nationals are run right now. We have 17 or so sportsmen classes that compete on the sportsmen course, with differnt gates for the Pro, Expert and Sportsmen expert riders on the same sections. Most of the NATC bills are paid by the sportsmen riders today, age groups starting now with the gradeschool class in 5 year increments through the 70 year old class. So the NATC will never give up the age system at the US nationals, they can't afford too. They pay the bills! The bulk of the entries at a national are the age groups with about 6 or 7 Pro class riders, with several of them being from Canada. Maybe another 6 or 7 Experts running through easier gates than the Pros. What we have now is about half the entry being on the podium in their age group, which our riders seem to like, lots of winners. So our sportsmen riders are served really well right now by the NATC / AMA national program. The only riders not really being helped is the Pro riders or the young hopefuls to the world championship. These proposals were simply an attempt to broden the program so that these riders would also be well served.

Thanks spinner, Clarity IS more important than agreement in a discussion, I mean by that understanding where people are coming from. What their fears and points are! We can't always agree but indeed we can understand each other, be clear on their positions and think outside the box a little like you said. Then maybe take a little ACTION. Sadly in Cody's case, one of the riders Alan mentioned, it may be too late for him. I hope not but he's beginning to shows signs of stagnation in his progress for his age to be World Champion. Simply ,he may have peaked within the NATC program already, like all the other top American riders of the past 2 decades. My hope is to save riders like Smage and Oldar and give them a clear path the World Championship. I know it's not too late for them, they simply need a clear path. A 125cc national Championship is the start of that path to a world title because it puts our kids on the same machines as the next up and comig Europeans. It simply gives them a reason to stay on the little bikes with sponsorship and gives them time to contest the 125cc national title and 125cc World rounds without being forced to switch between a big and small bikes. Nigel made some greats points about what bike to pick and how it has had an impact on British lads. Simply put, our youngsters and their dads will have to make the same choice. Do they move to a 250cc or 290cc bike or stay on a 125cc to do better at the World Championship? Now if an American boy has no interest in being World Champion, let them ride any bike they please, we have loads of sportsmen classes for them but to be world champion, they need to ride 125cc for as long as required for FIM World Championship events. Today in the USA there is little reason to stay on a 125cc bike! Which is the point, a 125cc bike is proven to be better for a young rider if he wants to do the World Championship for several reasons, that really can't be disputed. A 125cc National title would give Americans a reason to stay back on the 125cc machine without fear of losing his sponsorship. The importers and factories would be interested in this class simply because it is the proven stepping stone for the future world champions. I simply want to put Americans in the World championship game again, hope that's clear! I also don't want to create a situation where anyone is forced to ride a 125cc machine in the USA if they don't want to. Hope that is also very clear. The way it is now, we simply don't have a choice between 125cc or a big bike to get to the top of American Trials. A rider simply must move up in displacement as soon as possible. The introduction of a 125cc national championship however would give anyone a good reason to stay with the FIM standards as long as they needed. It's simply a matter of giving our riders THE CHOICE! Which they don't have now.

We are off the the Endurocross as well. Should be a fantastic event.

To help bring Alan and others up to speed on the NATC proposals to revamp the nationals and enlarge the US Pro class, here's a thumbnail blueprint of that proposal. Expert Sportsmen, Expert and Pro would be combined into one large class. Creating a much larger gene pool for the pros and more competition. Pro sections would be a mix of 1/3 Expert Sportsmen level sections, 1/3 Expert sections and 1/3 Pro levels sections for the morning qualifier. Contested with the Sportsmen event like now with the splits for the Pros, the biggest change would be the need for only two lines in the sections instead of three like we use now. Which gives the organizers a little bit of a break. The best 5 Pro riders on the morning qualifier course would transfer to the Pro finals consisting of 5 world class sections rode multiple times, El Trial style. The 125cc finals would also be run with them and consist of the best 5 qualifiers on the morning Sportsmen course. Ridden on the Pro final sections with differnt gates making them 125cc World Championship level sections like they do at the world championship. The sportsmen, non transfering Pros and non transfering 125cc championship riders would become part of the gallery along with the rest of the spectators. While the top five Pros and top five 125cc riders fought it out in front of the croud for the top spots. You can bet the the riders not making the top 5 transfer spots being forced to watch the other riders play, would be back next trial with a renewed effort to get into the game. Plus the riders in the top spots would have to learn to perform before a big croud, which puts added pressure on them and makes all of them better riders.

Nigel, thanks for the imput! We are at a disadvantage here not being able to study riders bouncing back and forth or sticking with the 125cc bike. I take your observations as having some insights we are not able to make, Thank you! I do know that it was REALLY hard for Cody Webb to ajust to the 125cc bike for the US World round. He rode well but how much better would he have done if he was used to a 125cc machine instead of a 290?

Alan, all the details were in the 125cc national championship proposal presented at the last NATC meeting. Here's a thumbnail review of that proposal if your not up to speed. 125cc national riders contest the Sportsmen line. The best scoring riders in the class transfer to afternoon exhibition sections, you can call them the finals if you like. Similar to the El Trial if you have ever been to that event, only not everyone gets to ride in the finals. Only the best of the best. The finals are on sections of similar difficulty to the European Championship or 125cc World championship. Remember however they are only ridden by the best in class, the rest of the 125cc field become part of the gallery along with the rest of the sportsmen riders, spectators and non transferring Pro riders. I can see how you can get confused if you have not seen the 3 proposals presented to overhaul the Pro class, Women's class and bringing a 125cc class to the national championship. If you would like I could start treds about the Pro and Women's championship proposals? All three worked together! They protected the fantastic sportsmen age groups, yet at the same time created an atmosphere where US youngsters who wanted to chase World Championship dreams, could, with much greater success. I tend to agree with you Alan, more competition is better, just like you posted above. That was the foundation of these three proposals. They seem to be right in your line of thinking.

Bikespace, I agree with you, Wiggy is doing a fantastic job. Should be world champ someday and I can't wait to see him ride in person. Sorry if my comment seemed below the bar, it's sort of like an ACU politics thing, only American Style. There is fear of change when it comes to our national organizing body! I'm simply addressing that fear, something that may seem below the bar to someone from Britan. Sorry for the dirty laundry! I'll try to keep it out of site from now on. We also lack a national pride and fighting sprit for some reason, when it comes to supporting our TDN team and individual riders into the world championship. Something you Brits never seem to suffer from, you guys fly the Union Jack really strong and cheer on your world team riders with great enthusiasm. That amazing rider support I can only look at and admire. Hope you don't see this as also being below the bar? Hensley, at the younth nationals, it wouldn't make one bit of differnce to me what size bike anyone rode. If a lad started winning, he would get noticed on any size bike. Realize however that when he became flushed with success and wanted to come and ride at the world round, he would have to do it on a 125cc bike. If he was not used to that power delivery on those much harder world sections, he would be at a huge disadvantage. So it's best to get any rider on a 125cc bike as soon as possible if they intend to ride world rounds from as early an age as possible. If they don't intend to ride up to the top levels, what differnce does it make the size of bike a kid rides.

Thanks for the imput men but look to our international results! We really have very little impact on the World Championship. Now if you don't care about another American World champion or a winning TDN team, then fine. Enjoy all the clubmen and sportsmen events you can ride. Not everyone can play in the Superbowl or a PRO baseball team but you can have fun watching it on TV. Why can't we in the USA create a WIN/WIN situation for all our kids? One that provides that fun atmosphere for the riders who have no desire to excel at the sport. Yet creates that clear path for those hoping for a world title? I've been told stait from the very top of the NATC that they do indeed want to put our TDN team in a better position. To have those better results, our best and brightest youngsters need to play by the same rules as the Europeans. Then ride with them as much as possible and have good results if they ever hope for factory support to cover travel expenses. Now the 125cc bike is for sure a disadvantage for Cody Webb or Smage when they compete against riders on 200cc, 250cc or perhaps even 290cc bikes at a US National. That's the obvious point and why they choose big bikes competing here. They find themselves in that in between grey area being from the United States, their big bikes are a disadvantage when they go to contest the world championship because their style depends on full powered bikes, yet they would be hurting their performance at a US national if they choose to compete on the little bike. This puts these fine young riders at a huge disadvantage against the Europeans their same age. This point cannot be argued, it's just the facts. What can be discussed is will we have the will power and courage to create a US series that is win/win? One that provides for the sportsmen youth riders and one that prepares our future TDN team and possible world champions?

Nigel, your right about the 125cc European championship, our lads can ride but they cannot figure into the results. That's always been the "Catch 22" for us. Who would support a rider who cannot figure into the results? Nobody! The new 125cc world championship however is perfect for a North American, Aussi or any other non-European riders to bust onto the world trials scene. The door has now been opened by the FIM for us to make a world comeback. Our job as a country is to simply leverage that oppertunity to our best advantage. It's self evident that the best possible way to do that is for our most gifted youngsters to train for the 125cc World Title. Get to Europe as soon as possible and score world championship points toward that title.

Nigel, your right of course, a US 125cc Championship would be designed to align ourselves with European standards. Riding with you guys is the only sure path for success for anyone hoping for a future World Championship. Sadly an American rider cannot ride the European Championship, which has been the traditional stepping stone for a World Championship in the past. Without that European Championship step available to us, we had no clear route for a progression to the World Championship for our riders and few options. The creation of the new 125cc World Title made for the first time in years, that clear route to the big bike championship for us. We Americans need to take full advantage of that opening by the FIM if we want a winning TDN team in the A division or another World Champion from the USA. Consider, when American riders like Smage or Webb compete on full size bikes at the US nationals they get used to all that power. Then if they decide to ride a world round, they must drop back to a 125cc machine to compete on even harder sections against Europe's best youngsters on a tidler bike. Which is a huge disadvantage for them because they are not used to the 125cc power or have they learned how to set them up to their best advantage. If some believe that our young riders are better off on full size bikes then consider this. The European riders will have had several seasons of 125cc world championship competition and seasoning before our young riders even get into the game. The European youngsters will have picked up factory support, mentorship and will have huge momentum before our youngsters even get into the game. The only sure way to give our riders an honest shot at the Europe's best is to have them train and prepare on the exact same bikes as they are on. Then have the best of them jump into 125cc world championship competition as soon as possible. Otherwise we can expect the same poor results from our riders for a long time to come at the World Championship and A division at the TDN.

Craig, hope this renews your faith in the Beave! The arguments against an American 125cc National Championship seems to be two fold and very weak. First that HRC/Montesa does not have a bike, so we can't have an American 125cc Championship without them. Hey, Honda could build a bike faster than anyone if they really wanted too. Then somebody may cheat is the other agument I've read. My reposne would be, do the Europeans cheat in the 125cc class? We have not heard any complaints from the European Championship or 125cc World Championship about building bigger bikes and sneaking them into the 125cc championships. My view is simply, anyone who cheats is only cheating themselves! Face it, the riders would simply police themselves. If anyone appeared to have a ton more power than the rest of the riders, they would be protested, torn down and checked. It would make great press! The importers would control this, after all it's in their best interest because it's their best riders who would win the trial and 125cc national title. Fear of cheating is about the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not wanting a 125cc Nationl title. I believe that trials riders are about the most honest people on the planet! Fear of possible cheating that may never happen, should have very little weight in the discussion on how do we bring US riders up to international standards. To fail to follow the patern and rules of the rest of the world is much more expensive to an American hopeful world champion than fear of somebody possibly cheating.

Thanks for the welcome back everyone! Also thanks Andy, your the best for going out of your way to make a path for me to come back. Big John, We have been drifting of late which is a auto sport that started in Japan about 20 years ago where you try to keep your car sideways all the time. We have bought a couple of Nissan 240SX beaters and are having a lot of fun. She is driving the RX8 Rotary powered Mazda on Fast and Furious 3 with a bunch of Pro Japanese and American drifters. These guys are simply amazing, like trying to ride with Dougie Lampkin, only in a rice rocket automobile. Geez these guys are good!