ttspud

Well, just had a quick look and what do you find? Lots and lots of tricked up 2-stroke unit bikes, some cubs and a handful of the big pre-units many of those tricked up too, which is exactly what I had expected to find given the current rules environment. That is good but a long way from a healthy pre65 sport in general but yes, it is great to see the bikes being ridden, it would be nicer to have more of the big bikes out too and some acknowledgement of the difference between a tricked up bike and an original one since obviously the original ones are staying at home outside the event we know about. It is good that the event has kept to pre65 bikes (modern albeit) without the 80s, 90s bikes and long may that series be supported and popular. We always disagreed there. I believe you have to have better rules than pretty much the vague sihouette type efforts. The event I shall not name, does have rules specifying original frame, engine, gearbox, forks and hubs, plus no electronic ignition (i think that is still it) but in the competitive classes that is entirely flouted so almost all original bikes (as you know, probably from the recent photos) have been pushed out to the clubman course. I will carry on riding an original, unmolested bike and lose all fives if need be, as you also well know. It is a shame though that there is only one other rider now with an original bike in that class. Anyway, maybe one day we will have some way of distinguishing between these bikes and others will then be inspired to come back and try. I think the sections are always set to suit the bikes, not the other way around. Originally, pre65 came into existence, said those that know, to allow pre65 bikes to continue in the face of superior Spanish machinery that caused the sections to become too hard. That is happening all over again (the original bikes find the courses for trick bikes too tough) except it is modified bikes that are pushing out original bikes except this time nothing is changing to deal with it. Last time it was a new sport, this time hopefully all that is needed is to distinguish between bikes.

It is so sad. You all know why this has happened. Because there are no useful rules, no ethics, lots of cheating and the bikes have become very expensive, all absolutely against the original highly popular idea. It is not that hard to understand. It has nothing to do with age or machinery or type of event. Pre65 trials have morphed into post65 trials with almost no pre65 bikes anywhere. What exactly are the principles of pre65/classic trials? When you have modern pre65 bikes, as collyolly said last week, that are better than 90s machines with no pre65 bits on them and little to no understanding of how tough riding a proper pre65 bike is, then what are the principles? Obviously the sport will fail because there is no sport. If you want an example of very popular classic series (in fact all of them are popular except for trials and none of the others have allowed the real bikes to disappear), they have principles. Here, for example are the classic road racing principles.. very obvious really.. 1. The preservation of the machines....... 2. The preservation of the machines...... In other words, if the sport does not preserve the machinery and entrants dont know what a pre65 bike is, and lets face it, there is no 'pre65' bike anymore, then obviously the sport dies. Or are we all still believing that there is no problem? Anyway, I expect most to deny that there is a problem and that cheating never had anything to do with it, nor does the sport need any rules nor does it need or want original bikes or riders of original bikes, and then to back that up with the usual abuse that is typical of people who know that they are in the wrong probably because they cheat themselves. But if you actually wanted to understand what a proper set of rules looks like (very similar to the ones posted many years ago on this very board which incidentally were trying to leave the cheat bikes in).. albeit for another classic motorcycle sport... then here you go CMCR Rules

I am afraid that collyolly is describing what pre65 has become in that the vast majority of pre65 machines entered into competitive pre65 trials are not pre65 at all and in all honesty have driven out all but a handful of the genuine machines. If you plan on riding the modern pre65 machines, as collyolly said, then there is no difference from them and a modern bike in terms of riding and controls. However, if you do want to ride a pre65 machine then yes, it is an entirely different animal altogether. Starting at the beginning, you have a magneto for ignition which has an advance/retard setting lever which gets adjusted depending on what type of section you are in and also between sections to avoid overheating the engine. Simply put, if you need to rev it up, then you need to advance the ignition. Next you have the valve lift lever. Some riders will use the valve lift for descending steep hills as it is a softer mechanism than brakes and means that you are less likely to cause a slide/skid which then becomes difficult to get out of. Next, your ground clearance will be poor. Combined with the weight, mine for example is 40kg above the modern pre65 machines it competes against, you will have to ride carefully to avoid grounding the bike. If you do, you are going to need both feet down to lift the bike, or if you are unlucky and hit at any speed, especially downhill, you will be ejected over the handlebars instead. Next, the engine. One characteristic of the AJS engine that I have is it has a slight delay between twisting the throttle and the engine picking up revs. Given the bike is very heavy and that that creates a certain momentum, you must adjust the way you shift your weight to account for the delay. The second engine characteristic is that the engine will stall going downhill if you are not careful. Perhaps another reason for using the valve lift going downhill is that you naturally then re-start the engine when you let it go again thus avoiding the engine stall issue. Next is momentum. On a modern/modern pre65 machine, you can stop and start at will and at any place in a section whether on a hill or not. Not so with a proper pre65 machine. If you stop, there is moisture and any sort of incline, you can often forget going forwards again. In other words, you need to create the momentum before you hit the slope and keep it going smoothly all the way up. Next the pure heft of such bikes makes all aspects more difficult and needing more effort as compared to modern pre65 bikes. Simply holding a line needs much more effort and planning since you cannot just expect to correct everything easily given the weight in the bike. Lastly I would say that because the proper pre65 bikes are so different and so much harder than the modern or modern pre65 machine, that there is a certain extra satisfaction to be had in getting them through even the easiest courses and perhaps also by experiencing riding the same heavy bikes in the shoes of our ancestors. Plus they always sound better and everyone likes seeing them. Regarding finding a course, there are now so few riders actually riding genuine pre65 machines in the competitive classes, that you may find it difficult to actually find a course on how to ride them. If you do actually want to ride a proper pre65 bike then you probably would be best off going to one of the events that actually have them and talking through the techniques there. In my experience, the best place to try out a proper machine might be in the clubman course of the Talmag where you will find the most of them anywhere plus the course will be set out for proper pre65 machines rather than the modern pre65 bikes and you will have riders there that are easy to approach and offer you some advice. Hope that helps a bit. Good luck with it.

Hi collyolly, Look, the whole thing always gets silly as your post proves. I believe that you can't have a pre65 sport which allows cheating, you ride a highly modified bike and so that upsets you, others here fabricate parts and so on, fair enough. Woody does not want a british bike series because he rides a Spanish twinshock in the current series, which ironically was a core reason to create pre65 to begin with, fair enough. I apologise for that and you get abusive. I call that getting silly. As someone who knows pointed out, you must have accurate classes or the sport will not be fair and will fail, as has been comprehensively proven by the complete loss of pre65 bikes from the pre65 series, and since I can help with drafting some decent rules and regulations catering for todays situation, I have. I would be just as happy with Deryk's original rules which deals with modifieds very well, it is just that I think all the modifieds being lumped together into one all-encompassing Specials class would be worse for them, but if that is what happens, so be it. As for my posts, it has all been said before and that is the only way to prevent the silliness getting out of hand. It is a small sport, everyone knows each other, so perhaps try to be polite, we need all the riders we have. All the best, TTSpud

Hi Deryk Yes, I remember you saying that earlier and that is I think why I quoted (almost got it right) the first numbers above. I pretty much reckon you would know the figures best of any of us with your experience. Do you recognise the other figures from the link at all..? I mean is there an obvious way to explain the difference between the 132kg from the link and the 125kg (275lbs), is the 132 just wrong, or are there any differences between the machines being weighed, exhaust routing, rims maybe? Same for the AJ? I ask because I ought to weight my bike properly, I am intrigued to know how heavy it is now, given the possibilities! Thanks, TTSpud

Hi Dave, thought I would check those numbers, you're right, the HT5 was heavier than I said (132kg dry), 300lbs wet, but here is the kicker which i also got wrong, the AJS was originally more like 150kg presumably dry, 340lbs wet, apparently, so I was almost right in saying the AJ is heavier, it is, and by in the realms of 40lbs heavier. The modern ht5 is said to be 90kg these days with the new frames and no doubt the smaller 2-strokes they also contend with, a lot less than that, which is a lot less than my 90s Gas Gas which is over 90kg dry. A completely buff standard AJS would be giving away 63kg to a modern pre65!! if those figures are true. Mine I reckon is conservatively more like 130kg though it could well be more than that judging by those figures. It has alloy rims which must save a bit, but still has the original frame, steel tank, original hubs, mag ignition, original seat, and so on. Anyway, here is the info I found: http://www.twnclub.c...Ariel/ariel.htm Peace in the land of pre65. TTSpud

Hi Dave, well, yes, but all is well now, our ranting days in this thread are happily behind us. Stewart has his bike, he is happy. We all came out of it unscathed and happy. So all to the good. Good bit of debate is good for the soul. Ah, a shame you sold it, they are a lot fun. Weight, means nothing to me, I'll ride it. All the best, TTSpud

Hi Dave, do you still ride your standard HT? Standard it weighed 275lbs about 30lbs less than the AJ, so it weighs nothing at all. Get it out, ride it, enjoy it, as I have done. Of course people arent going to worry about comments on here, why should they? Most people to get into pre65 investing that much will go to a club. As Wallo says, it is all nonsense anyway. Bit of nostalgia for Wallo from 2012... So much fun, not a plastic mudguard in sight...!! Bet you are in there somewhere!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvlkvCFvZg

Yes, thanks OTF. All the best, TTSpud

Hi OTF, yes, thanks. No, the bike isn't competitive in the sense that it is in no way equal to the bikes it rides against, it gives away 40kg in weight against some as a starting point, throw in ground clearance and.... anyway, it did get an outing this year and I did enjoy riding it, that'll keep it going and many, many others enjoyed seeing and hearing it. All the best, TTSpud.

Hi Jon, thanks for taking the trouble to post. I agree with your post, we just disagree about the need for rules to distinguish between the bikes. My bike will too be (and has been) all but lost to the sport, but then I did all I could to prevent that. If the sport does not want riders of these bikes, because it makes them uncompetitive, then if mine is an unwelcome view, then so be it. I enjoy competing, a sport that doesnt have that is far less appealing to me. It is a shame, the bike has ridden events, still in the same trim as it was back then, by works riders, from the early 60s right through to this year by many generations and since the 80s by my family. So I have a view of the sport through all of it, the points made are from a point of experience. The bike is a beauty, it always gets lots of attention which it seems many of the more modified bikes don't get. People know the bike and its history, which is great. I have a brilliant video of it from this year's Talmag, ridden through a section (in fact my second section on any bike of any kind ridden in about 4 years, so I was a bit doubtful of what would happen) that only a handful of riders got through at all, many looping outrageously to get a good angle, I didn't loop dont like that, turned tight, catered for the throttle delay, moved early on the bike to account for the lurch and heft of the machine, and gave it full beans, the beautifully built engine (by the late Morris Hocky) sounding like an orchestra at high note, the beast reared over rock and mud and root, attacking everything in its path, at this point I was less rider and more bronco rider, but I was up, bounced and bruised, I made it and cleaned it to a huge cheer from the people watching which was great testimony to the bike, with lots of laughter from me! Brilliant. But, as Japes, I will never butcher this bike just to make it competitive for a short period of time. It should be passed down to others but now there is so little competitive sport left for them as previous generations had. You guys may think that is just a jaundiced view, but I do not. I have ridden the Talmag maybe six times or so, and won my course twice on that 130kg+ bike, I am happy with that. As I say, others with more time and experience than I have beaten all of the modified bikes on the hardest of courses on the same type of original bike as this year, but that really is a very very large rarity and not open to mere mortals. It is competition that adds enjoyment to me, not just winning. If you just enjoy winning, bring in the mods. This thread was not about discussing this stuff in any case and so it is great that Stewart has a competitive bike to ride, I am sure he will enjoy himself on it wherever he is. Let's just leave this old chestnut on the grass where it won't grow and waste any more of our time, all the best, TTSpud.

Hi OTF, I am not offended if that is your first point, that does not mean that you are not constantly getting personal, you are. Anoraks, whingers, on medication, jaundiced.. and so on, things like this, you know full well that these are not jokes and what their purpose is. Funny how you only angle these things at me and a few select others who you disagree with, if it is humour, why not share your brand of humour with everyone?, isnt everyone allowed a good joke, who else is jaundiced, anorak, whinger and on medication, or is it just me and a few select others? You know what you are doing so just cut it out. But yes, you did offend another contributor who has not posted since and has removed his informative posts which is a shame, and so yes, because you offended him, regardless of whether you meant it or not, you do owe him an apology. I am sure you can do that. On the pushing modern bikes, no, that was part tongue in cheek with a dose of reality thrown in. It is just a factual thing that britshocks, competitive ones as talked about here, are very expensive by comparison to a relatively modern bike and that it is far easier to find a modern event than a pre65 one, I provided proof for that, those are facts that need considering when deciding how to bring life back into pre65 that we all agree is lacking. These days I only have time to ride the pre65 occasionally, I have not ridden modern for years, so I do not really think I am a good ring-leader for modern bikes and if you read all of my old posts, which you have, you would know that. With the rules thing, it does not matter whose rules are used, but there does need to be rules which cater for both original and britshocks before the gap is now so large and widening all the time. If you want to write some, be my guest. Charlie has written some. Yorkshire has a set. Peaks probably has a set. But if they do not cater for both originals and britshocks fairly, as Deryks did at one time, then they are no good, as Stewart points out, they have to be unambiguous or 'crystal clear'. That is obvious but you disagree talking about ranting (another of your little 'jokes') instead of actually talking about it. A good thing that guys are making money out of developing britshocks is not in doubt, and if they are overworked then great. I doubt anything I say here will change that bearing in mind the few comments I have made. But that does not again detract from the issues that face pre65/britshock in terms of lack of riders and so on. You might not want to discuss it, fine. In the real world, there are issues and the solutions would both help the sport and that would help the guys making the parts, in fact properly governing the sport and opening it up fairly to both types of bike, would open up opportunities for them as well as for the britshocks, but again, that point has been made before. If they are overworked, then they will have to work a bit harder! As for Ben, his bike is well pictured on here, and the comments from contributors were universally acknowledging that it didnt have much any more to do with an Ariel HT5, it is highly modified. I am sure he knows that already. If it is the issue of cheating you refer to, then yes, effectively it is cheating, as has already been admitted by those brave enough even in this thread. It is cheating. It would be nice if it could be not cheating as in let britshocks ride with some rules allowing other bikes to have a fair ride too. As you know, he has been a bit unlucky in coming second twice, at the Talmag and the SSDT, on the narrowest of margins. You will also know that at the Talmag he was beaten by an original HT5 with all the bits in the right places, and as we know, that really is a feat. All the best, TTSpud

Hi Stewart, Yes, as the others say, well done, I hope sincerely that you enjoy your bike too. It is obviously highly modified and expensive, but you know that already. It is still to be enjoyed all the same and no-one should begrudge anyone else for what they want to do. And yes, there was no intention to take this thread in another way, the rather fatal 'are there any pre65 parts on it?' rather opened up a new thread inside a thread. But that should in no way deter you and I am pleased that it hasn't. Your point about rules is well made. There does need to be 'crystal clear' rules as you say. The problem is, as you might now guess, there aren't, and that has cost the original pre65 bikes and riders from competing and that is a shame. All the best, TTSpud

Well, if you really mean that then yes, you're right of course, and it is funny you should say that because it's been done, twice by me, probably more times by others. First in 2014, a mammoth one going on for a week or so, 82 replies. Just an open forum to discuss solutions, but it got no further than deciding that there was no problem. The usual faces objecting. http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/49428-original-pre-65-class/ Then in 2015, an early go at a solution for discussion. The usual faces getting abusive as they have in this thread, so I deleted all of the posts. But what was left is here. It didn't really get any further than deciding (again) that there is no problem. http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/55232-icmtr-pre-65-trials-rules/ I have no time to put that much into it again. If you want to start a new discussion, go for it. If you can manage the abuse, encourage others to participate again, hope that you don't have the usual issue of people deliberately being obtuse, and have already without any doubt opened yourself up to the possibility that there is both a problem and the possibility of a solution, then yes, have a go, if you think you're hard enough!!

No, it is a red herring. Of course older riders won't want to still ride the heavy bikes, but it is not true to say that there are not younger riders who could come into pre65 given a fair set of circumanstances. I know many riders of my age, young and younger, with decades ahead to ride, that would love to ride in pre65 but are certainly put off by the ever increasing exorbitant prices of bikes ultimately made worse by the loss of rules driving up prices by causing expensive modifications to be a must-have on 'competitive' bikes. If you did see the earlier links, the suggestion was that a competitive 2-stroke, tiny little britshock would be north of £6k, that is not going to attract the type of rider riding pre65 when the whole thing began and it is certainly not going to do so now. Plus, of course, the difficulty and expense of actually finding an event. I know, people will say how about this or this, but most just want a local club and to not travel too far with a decent number of riders to ride against in the same class. And that sadly now just does not exist at all for pre65, and is very rare indeed for britshocks. None of that is going to help even the most determined youngsters ride. If people genuiney want pre65 to survive, then cut out the abuse and began to look at what is stopping those riders from riding. I don't know how more simply to put it.

Exactly. More insults and abuse. More getting personal as predicted. You make my point perfectly. Thank You. You make the world of Pre65 seem so attractive, so welcoming. Did you manage to apologise to the other party you abused earlier yet? Ah no, you just made things worse. Did you try to talk about the issues facing pre65? No. You run the Peaks Club, it must be nice to know that you treat the anoraks there so well or have you put them off too? And I am sure that when I go, you will carry on your abuse. Well Done.

Hi Deryk, I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Our bikes still have magnetos, and have never had an issue in a pre65 trial with them although they do need maintaining. But, my brother and I have both been put out of modern events with modern electronic ignition breaking completely. One I remember, an immaculately maintained beta, blew through more than one electonic ignition in a matter of months, and they do not come cheap and they are not repairable. Going back to the original debate about GOV132, now that bike is a special, was always a special (as has been pointed out) and even back then was a big advantage over original pre65 bikes. Today, that bike is still an advantage over the proper pre65 bikes which some people still ride, yes 300lb and so on. I still ride one, I am young and I am very happy to do what needs to be done to maintain it and I have no problem with riding such a heavy machine, or a slow engine, or a wide seat, or a long bike, or poor suspension, as long as it is not being ridden against cheat bikes which have nothing left of pre65 in them. Now that is the truth. Too many people not just bending the rules but ignoring them completely, effectively there are no rules. Anything goes. That Ariel on ebay is an absolute joke. It may as well be a Gas Gas or Yamaha. That is why you don't see many proper pre65 bikes, it is nearly impossible to have fun when you are so disadvantaged against 'modern' bikes with some courses becoming difficult to dangerous for 300lb bikes designed for 200lb bikes and competitive twinshocks for all but the best originals riders. What do you expect? You yourself are riding a modified bike yet expect others to accept every disadvantage you are forcing upon them? Or do you expect them to modify their bikes too and hence remove another 'true enthusiast' as you put it, from the sport? You either want a sport with pre65 bikes, or you do as is being done and modify your bike in the same class and watch them leave. No, the truth is that some people in the sport seem to have put winning above anything else, will do anything to win, at any cost to anyone else, with no regard for anyone else, at any cost to their bank balance, with no regard to people watching or to the sport's future, probably started with the series following Deryk's original immensely succeful series.. that following series without rules began the decline which you see in the almost completely removal of original pre65 bikes today, all except for the Talmag. No, they have done exactly the right thing. And it is no joke. Len Huttys bike was quite heavily modified compared to an original, though it did look immaculate. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I don't want me or others to have to be forced to spend up to ten thousand pounds to develop a cheat bike of no manufacturer if they want to enter this sport.. just a mass of one-off parts to be replaced next year.. and actually each expensive new part worth precisely zero to anyone else without precisely the same cheat bike. Not a very attractive proposition for anyone sporting a brain. What I want to see is pre65 bikes ridden by riders who respect the sport, organisers who have a set of rules that allow them to support pre65 bikes to be ridden on courses set outfor pre65 bikes, with those that wish to ride specials being included but identified as such and catered for within the rules. For those that wish to continue forever moving pre65 to 'modern', how far do you want to see the developments go? Introduce mono-shocks? Disk brakes? Hydraulic brakes and clutch(probably already here!)?... Why bother? Just buy a modern bike and leave pre65 alone so that others can enjoy pre65 as pre65 not pre65 come anything goes. No, Deryk is right, things are going to need to begin again, with rules and bikes that people can understand and a sport that people can enjoy again and believe in again. All the best, TTSpud

@davetom, feetupfun, otf, jonv8 And the sport would have been great if that is where it had been left, as you know, it has not been. This is what happened last time, people getting upset. For some reason having a discussion about such an important issue seems to always devolve into 'sides'. This is not about demonizing or getting personal, this is trying to have a discussion about facts and find solutions. I understand many can't see that there is a problem, or benefit from the status quo, but that does not mean there isn't a problem. And effectively (above) saying that 'we know better', clearly is the weakest argument one can offer. The fact is that there is only one 'competitive' event left in the country that has a fairly large number of original pre65 bikes, though that event is dying too. Ignoring that fact is not helpful. In all other events, as Scarborough, as Somerton, as Peaks, the events have monoshocks, modified units, non-British, non-pre65 and if there are any pre-unit so-called pre65 bikes, often less than 10, then they are almost always highly modified and do not resemble the orginal bikes at all. In other words, ouside that one event, there are a tiny number, if not no, original bikes being ridden in classic/pre65 trials and associated clubs. Whether orgainsers are at fault or not, that is a fact. Although not pre-unit, the BSA C15 in an earlier thread is typical of the 'evolved' bikes and associated attitudes. Compare that picture to the original bike shown on Charlie's site. There are few to no pre65 parts on the bike. Geometry completely different. Frame, hubs, rims, tank, seat, ignition, bars, forks, engine casings are all highly modified. Anyone without a brass neck the size of nelson's column knows that that is not a pre65 bike and is probably as competitive as the best twinshocks. Beautiful bike it may be, but fair in pre65 it is not. Highly modified bikes are certainly a huge advantage over original bikes that they are commonly,.by organisers, pitted against on a supposedly even footing. Just saying that that is natural progression or evolution, is disingenuous at best. In truth, as has been admitted, it has come about through a desire to win at any cost, colloquially known as 'cheating'. All that is fact. It is also a fact, from Deryk's experience and obvious logic, that any 'competitive sport' must be fair. Obviously a neo-90s twinshock vs a pre65 big thumper is not fair, but the rules do not stop it. Obviously then riders leave, overriding any other factor including age and severity of routes. That too is a fact. To reverse this, organisers need to introduce rules to allow original bikes to compete against similar machines, not against highly modified non-pre65 machines, that is obvious too. Every trial and club has their own version of the rules or a complete lack of rules. All different. Mostly useless. And almost all just allow anything to enter as pre65 which has caused a completely loss of original bikes from the 450+ in Deryks day and the 240+ from the 80s/90s in the southern event, all decimated now, soon to end the pre65 sport completely. If there are no sport-wide rules, how do you know what to enter? Do you keep a separate bike per trial? A separate bike per club? I understand that many here manufacture parts or benefit from the manufacture of parts to keep the modified industry going. But those bikes have helped to kill the sport. I do now understand that the only way forward is to begin again (rather than expect the existing structures to change) with inclusive rules allowing fair competition, then original bikes can return to new competitive events under new competitive rules, which will happen when time allows. I am certainly looking forward to the day that that is a reality. I wish the rest of you the best of luck with your 'classic evolution' wherever that goes and whichever monoshock, britshock, or Tricott or whatever wild incarmation of modern/classic tricksterism takes the sports fancy next. I will always believe that original pre65 bikes in a pre65 sport are always best for the sport, for current riders, for future riders and spectators alike. I understand that you disagree. All the best, Spud.

As a quick summary of the posts on the thread, the overwhelming consensus on this board seems to be 'We do not mind losing all genuine pre-65 bikes from pre-65 trials, we just want to ride what we want, and see no problem in that. All sports progress and that, to us, is progression in this one'. Of course, I disagree as a minority here also do. To clarify the original 'ICMTR Pre-65 Trials Rules' subject of the thread for those who were not involved, the ICMTR rules have been very carefully developed, they are a best start and are subject to further tightening if necessary, with some good points put forward here, but they are absolutely unambiguous and so enforcable, scrutineering will be developed appropriately, the rules do not exclude modified bikes, they include original bikes in a fair way through sub-classes allowing them to enjoy competing on the same routes as any other bike in the trial and competing against similar original machinery. [Adding a little more] Answering my own queries from the original thread a year ago, Deryk's original rules do exist in the ACU handbook, and are good rules, but they have not been enforced since the mid 80s seemingly beginning with the Sammy Miller series and now are unusable because there are very few bikes, being entered versus existing, now that conform to them. Effectively then the sport has no rules in place and the sport cannot go back to Deryk's rules without losing many current riders and their bikes or placing many in the 'Specials' class en masse, which is obviously undesirable. And with no rules, being forced to accept such a huge disadvantage, riders of original machinery will continue to stay at home whilst their bikes are left without a competition to enter, which is undesirable also. So, what is the motivation for the ICMTR rules?; to have rules which fairly include the currently uncompetitive originals (some to none in the northern events, slowly losing them also from southern events following the same path) so that those riders continue or can come back, and to include the modifieds alongside them but in separate, still competitive, sub-classes. Any competitive sport must have sport-wide rules, currently pre65 trials effectively does not. And the only way in which that will happen is if rules can cater for both types of bike, the common modified, and the rarer original. The ICMTR rules do that very well. In terms of where the line is drawn. Should 'original' sub-class bikes be absolutely as they left the factory? No, some alterations were done then on the grounds of practicality and are still a good choice now, such as tyres, rims, handlebars, exhaust routing and levers. Added to that have been the rear shocks, front fork internals and the Amal 1 carb. That is the flavour of the sub-class not the precise rules, the published rules are precise and include the complete detail of parts allowed. The result is not exactly as it left the factory but is 'in the spirit of' pre65 bikes, and a world away from that which is accepted as a pre65 bike today in the modified sub-class. As needs repeating, the rules benefit the sport and do not exclude any current bike or any current rider. No modified bike is being further excluded or moved out of their existing class. If riders wish to ride carbon Ariels in modern sections, that is the concern of the club and that will not be affected. What will change is the protection and perhaps return of original riders and original bikes under rules which allow that to occur in clubs who recognise what has happened and wish to see a truer representation of pre-65 trials exist for riders and spectators alike. It is of course no issue for clubs that see no problem, or see too much risk, or like things as they are, they can continue to run as they see fit, and that seems to be the viewpoint of many here representing northern clubs, and so vehement and upset as many here became, I saw fit to close the discussion, and failing to do so, in the light of the earlier thread repeating the same points, it was best simply to remove the rules up for discussion, and contentious posts, from here entirely. Ask Greeves made a very salient point: "the days of 'in the spirit of the class' are well and truly gone." He is right, for the majority on this board, that is correct. But I do not agree that it is correct for all others nor for all other clubs. To save the trouble of going over all this again, and for the majority on this board who disagree, 'RIP Pre65 circa 1984'. And for anyone else who wants to get involved or help, watch this space. All the best, TTSpud

Hi Suzuki & Fanatic, Yes, there will be things that are going to be awkward, to a degree. Engine internals obviously. But there are many others that are visual such as frame, hubs, carburettor, mag electrics, seat, tank, mudguards, forks and so on, that will not be. And most likely if someone has gone as far as titanium parts, they are going to have changed everything else anyway, and would already want to ride a modified. This will not affect those riding the modifieds. They will continue as before. It they want a carbon frame, so be it. Someone'll make them one and they'll be able to gain an advantage to other modified riders. Thanks, TTSpud

Hi Suzuki & Fanatic, Yes, as the 2-stroke question above, it is likely that the rules could be applied in the same way to other pre-65 bikes, as the Spanish machines you suggest, though neither would be eligible to ride at the events I have ridden at which were all British, 4-stroke & pre-unit anyway. 'What is an original pre-65'? Well, the rules will make that very clear and unambiguous. 'Who would scrutinize the 40+ bikes'? Firstly, of course it is only those entered as 'Original' that would need the extra attention for that, and it is likely that only events that did scrutinize before would want to include the distinction for originals anyway. And if 40+ bikes have entered as original, that would be amazing. Thanks Guys, TTSpud

Hi Trials, Good Question. I don't see why not at all, that is, at least almost certainly can be included in the rules. I shall hold back on the details until I know for sure. The events that I have ridden at are British, pre-unit, four-stroke, to my knowledge. But, the idea is really as appropriate to the bikes that you point out, it is just that they are not, again, to my knowledge, being ridden at the events that I have attended. I have noted it down, and I will keep your point in mind as something to address. Thanks, TTSpud

Hi Jon, No problem at all. Wine can say the most senseless of things. And the Gasser is a different bike altogether! Good riding and Good Luck, TTSpud

Hi Charlie, Will do. Thanks for the support. TTSpud

Hi Jon, Yes, I looked at the Bath Classic club, it looks like a fantastic club, well done. 8 events a year and 50/60 riders across a whole range of different bikes, ages and so on. Brilliant, if I were nearer, I would certainly enjoy riding there. Your AJS looks amazing too, lots of mods and so on, great. I have no problem with others enjoying modified bikes at all. Gaining the advantage. Weedling out that inch of height or kilo in weight. It all helps to get you the winning edge. If the rest force me into it, I don't mind winning at all. Sometimes it is a bit embarrassing though. All those hot bikes and my old bone-breaker beats em all!! My only considered offering to the the God 'Win At Any Cost' is a square inch of duck tape on the good ol' steel tank to stop the hole in my trousers getting too much bigger. And still that damn wide leather seat causes all sorts of havoc!! Oh for a slim seat, light bike, easy clutch, electronic ignition, small tank, plush suspension.. ah, that's why I have the Gasser!!! I have once considered letting a bit of air out of the tyres to really gain an edge; the problem is you have to pump them back up!! No, if it is avid 'wrapped up in trying to win' that you have a problem with, you want to look at those modifying their bikes for your quarry. If no-one had begun the fanatical pursuit of that route, the sport would not need to consider originals designations in the first place. You only need to look at the bikes at the Scottish events to see what has happened. They are pre-65 bikes but only by name. You can call a train a van if you want, but it does not make it one. There are no bikes like mine there, there couldn't be, you'd bottom out on almost every rock on the course!! Not much fun to be had there. Already excluded the chance of competing on an equal footing at one event, before long it'll be all events and I am not going to let that happen. Yes, thank you, your concern is sweet!! Though, I have ridden for 30 years, if I can't do it now, I never will. Talking is not allowed? Blimey, sorry, I had no idea. I shall remember that and ride as silently as a gentle breeze. I can't speak for the bike though, it is a bit loud but to shut that up would really be a crime. Great! Of course, I ride in abject misery, a flaking wisp of a being, covered in pain, wracked with fear and wishing I was anywhere else!! In amongst that, I am able to enjoy it too, wonders will never cease. As your modified bike hops over logs, wheelies up the hills, endos around the corners, the odd splat at a step... I'll be raging up a hill, muscling through a gully and fighting my way through the mud, wonderful and as it has always been. Better though to compete fairly, and in enabling that, we will all enjoy it even more and we will protect the sport for those to come. And that is a good thing. I don't know if you have enough riders riding pre-65 originals to worry about including originals, but you will likely be able to get to the originals rules from here anyway when they are available. Thanks for your post though, good luck with the club, it looks brilliant. Keep your feet up! as the trials guys say, TTSpud