dan williams

Thanks, that's one data point. Going through 4 ignitions in such a short period of time points to an environment failure such as a serious wiring fault and away from simple reliability of electronics which still supports my theory with the rather large hole of where would the two systems cross-connect. The first rule of statistical analysis however is not to make assumptions from insufficient sample size. One is not a sufficient sample size. Heh heh "Mr Williams"? You sound like my mom. I did notice the diode in the kill switch circuit and that is something I haven't noticed on any other bike I've worked on. It may very well be Beta has come to a similar theory and that diode is there to prevent errant current from the 12V lighting circuit dumping into the CDI. I'll have to look at earlier revisions of the schematics. If the diode isn't there that supports the idea. There's no other reason for it to be there. As for the clutch, I found that if I take the fiber plates out and smooth the edges of the tabs that index the plates to the basket they slide smoother and the clutch works better. It's been covered in other posts so I won't go into it here. Dan

Remember the cover of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? Don't Panic I don't know the HTML code to make "large, friendly letters". Just large letters. This is just an idea that I'm investigating that was sparked by an odd electrical behavior in my bike. It's not meant to scare people into thinking their bikes will fail. Just like all the other bikes I've owned all the lighting stuff will be coming off this one as well but I thought this was a possible answer to the small percentage of CDI failures that some have experienced. Again this is the type of thing I do for a living and for my work a 1% improvement in failure rate is millions of $$ over the course of a product's lifetime. For Beta this is an annoyance to be sure, for the dealers it's a real pain but for the owners this happens to it's a nightmare so if I can get insight into a failure mode and it turns out there is a simple answer everybody wins. If my suspicions are correct the fix may be as simple as one more ground wire run to the headlight switch assembly from a hard ground point on the chassis or even making sure the ground connections on your bike are clean and tight but for now I'm just gathering information. I'd rather this didn't deteriorate into an attack/defend thread. Believe me I'm a hardcore Beta fan. I've been riding Betas since '89 and have no reason to change now. But I'm also an engineer so by nature I love a puzzle and this one falls smack dab into my speciality. Hey if I can help a fellow Beta rider love his bike as much as I love mine it's all good. So back to the original question, Have the bikes with CDI failures had the lighting cluster installed?

I think I

Yup I've used Mobil1 as well with good results.

My current plug of choice is an AC Delco part number "4". I love it when I go into a parts store and tell the guy I need a Delco part and he scrolls through the computer parts screen to get to the Delco page and asks what the part number is. The conversation usually goes like, "What's the part number?" "4" "Er...4?" "Yup, 4." Laughter It's a platinum plug that is the right heat range for my Beta, it's cheap and can be had at any automotive store. Never fouled one and the bike runs great. All I had to do was change the plug cap because it doesn't have the screw off nib at the top of the plug.

It's not uncommon for the hot internals like the connecting rod to collect a kind of varnish from the unburned but well cooked oil that accumulates on them. It won't hurt anything, just ignore it. I assume you've taken the piston off of the connecting rod. I use a Dremel tool with the wire wheel to clean carbon from the top of the piston and head. A little degreasing hand cleaner added is a bit messy but will polish it up nice. Use light pressure as you're trying to degunk and knock off carbon not score the aluminum. Be patient and take your time. Once done flush it off with water after to make sure there are no residual carbon bits or pieces of the wire wheel in the nooks and crannies. You also want there to be no residual degreaser. Remember safety glasses. Especially with the little wire wheels since they are prone to flinging off pieces of wire. You shouldn't need to go near the sealing surface of the head with the Dremel. Let me re-phrase that. Don't go near the sealing surface of the head with the Dremel. Use a broken ring to chase any debris in the ring grooves. Don't take the Dremel to the ring grooves either because if you change the shape of the bottom of the groove you might as well not put a ring in. My experiance with Betas is that after 4 years of use the rings get a bit tired and the first symptom is it's a little harder getting the bike to fire up in the morning. The fall off in power is so gradual you really never notice it until you replace the rings. Once you do you'll think you have a new bike.

The times I've tried ATF in a Beta I hated it. I currently use Spectro Golden Gear oil.

For those of you who've sprung for one of the fancy new 22 inch monitors I figured I'd throw up a few large format photos for general consumption. Enjoy. http://www.newenglandtrials.org/Wallpapers_22.htm

Seems low until you roll up some slippery nasty obstacle with hardly any wheelspin. Tube rear tires were commonly run around 4-6 PSI. Tubeless are routinely run from ~2.5 to 4 PSI in slippery conditions. It's very common for newbies to run way too much tire pressure and think that the reason they can't find traction in areas where others are just rolling through is a lack of technique. It's always fun to walk up to a new rider and let the air out of their 15 PSI rear tire and tell them to try it again. It's quite literally an eye opener when they ride through some nasty stream bed with their eyes big as saucers. I typically run 4 PSI in dry conditions but will go to 2.5 PSI in really slippery stuff. Remember the contact patch at 2.5 PSI is twice the size as it is at 5 PSI. The common belief is that you get more traction with more weight on the wheel because you increase the friction. That's not quite correct. Above a certain weight there really isn't a significant increase in the friction of tire vs terrain for a given surface area. The real reason weighting a wheel increases traction is weight on the wheel increases the area of the contact patch. When the radial rear tires first came out they were designed to be used with tubes so they were typically run at a higher pressure to prevent pinch flats. Once the tubeless tires came into use pressure was dropped to the current levels. Although it is possible to damage a rim it really doesn't happen that often. It is much more common to suffer sidewall damage to the tire. Fortunately it is possible to plug a tubeless and I have run tires for embarrassingly long times with a slew of plugs sticking out the side. So go ahead and let some air out. You'll be amazed what a difference it makes.

There are a couple of things to consider here. The markup on the high end bicycles is probably on par or greater then the the markup on a trials bike. Add to that the relative ease of bringing a shipping container full of bicycles into the country vs a motor vehicle with all the emission/limited use restrictions paper work and it's easy to see how an unsold bicycle is something that will probably sell even at a reduced profit at the end of the season. The trials market is a lot smaller and an unsold motorcycle will probably have to be sold at a loss as it's value drops dramatically once the newer model comes out. Bicycle shops also have a lot of low end volume to support the shop. In many cases the high end bicycles are there as loss leaders as the people who buy them will also buy accessory gear at significant markup. There is a critical volume of business where a shop can be self sufficient and unfortunately it's very difficult in a small market like trials to hit that point. Especially when others are coming into the market with dreams of becoming successful dealers and pouring in their own resources only to not make money and then exit. That is what I meant by likening the current situation to a pyramid scheme. I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone but noting that an excess of individual capitol falsely deflating the open market value of trials bikes works for the riders in the short term but is unhealthy as no dealer can move sufficient volume on their own unless they are willing to sell bikes for no profit. We've all become so focussed on the idea of paying the absolute lowest price that the concept of value added and keeping money in a local economy has become almost irrelevant. Kind of like the addiction to buying cheap Chinese made products to save money and then complaining because you lost your manufacturing job at the widget plant so you have to buy cheap Chinese made products. TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch) Along that line people are missing just what a lot of work it is to be an importer. The up-front costs are huge and there's no guarantee they'll be recovered by the end of the year. Add to that a lot of governmental issues that must be dealt with to bring motor vehicles into the country and all it takes is one off-the-wall rule or legislation to bring it all crashing down. Remember a few years ago when the US in a fit of trade retaliation was going to put a 50% tariff on small European motorcycles in response to European restrictions on South American bananas from American companies. Say WHAT???

Perhaps your rings and seals have now seated and the compression is up slightly.

Rather then give my opinion I suggest you take a stroll through the individual bike forums on this site. You'll get a pretty good feel for the usual problems/solutions for each brand and how they are viewed by the community of riders. No bike is perfect (except mine of course) but they are all a whole lot of fun. As Ron Commo always tells me, nobody needs more then a 125 to ride trials. That is obvious from watching the world juniors ride. Of course I'm an idiot and buy a 270 anyway but don't think you need the biggest engine to do well. A bigger engine will tire you out quicker and when a 270-290 gets away from you it does it with a certain enthusiasm that can't be described without lots of crunching and scraping noises. (see avatar)

To be honest if you can't get financing through a bank you probably shouldn't be spending $7000 on a toy. Usually I finance through a bank but this time my retirement account sent me a letter telling me I could finance through them. HUH? I read through the fine print and the practical upshot is I have to pay a processing fee for the loan but I essentially pay the money back to myself with interest. That makes it cheaper than the '05 was. Hence the shiny new '08 sitting next to the '05. I want to make a point that my post was not an attempt to look smart. Unfortunately once I get writing I tend to run on a bit. It pains me greatly to take an objective look at the fragmentation in the trials community and how it affects us all. I can look back on 25 years and a lot of great memories in this sport and would like nothing more then to see the word get out on just what an amazing sport this is but it's not for everybody and that is the simple truth. With the eco movement targeting off road recreation we are losing ground at such a fast pace now that even trials venues are getting hard to find but they are still easier than most sports to run and this should be a time of great expansion for trials. That is what I meant by a concerted effort to expand the sport. Reaching out to other off road communities who are finding they must adapt and adopt new ways to motor should be the growth engine that drives trials forward. That is not the job of the dealers or the importers. It falls squarely on the shoulders of the promoting clubs. Growth is the engine that drives the sport. More riders buy more motorcycles, who ride more events, who get their buddies to buy motorcycles which raises the market for used bikes allowing for more new bikes to be sold. Here's the secret to it all. Make it fun. Don't beat up riders in the lower classes. Don't force mandatory promotion on guys out for fun. Have a class where new adults can learn the sport without feeling they've been sent to the kids table at a holiday supper. If trials grew 10% a year for the past ten years there would be no discussion of importer direct, backyard dealers or currency fluctuation. We'd all be too busy riding, selling and fixing bikes. The biggest avalanche starts with a single snowflake. The snowflake for trials is making it as addicting for everyone as it has been for me. Make it fun for all (or at least as many as possible) who show up and they'll find the money for a bike, and they'll bring their friends and so the avalanche begins.

Yes the sensitive tushy. On that front although it is not strictly mechanical I have one suggestion to prevent the mad case of monkey butt from resting on a trials seat RE: fender. Spandex bicycling shorts with the built in chamois padding fit under riding pants and provide built in cushion that doesn't get in the way. I'm talking the road rider shorts here. Once you get over the initial feeling that you're wearing a diaper they are quite comfortable. Your sensitive tushy will thank you.

I know this won't make you feel any better but here's a little starting story. A couple of years ago a friend of a friend wanted to try a bike I had for sale. He's standing over the bike assuring me he knows how to ride when he puts his foot on the lever, jumps up and stomps down on it. The rest of us were all staring at him in obvious shock. When I recovered enough to ask him what he was doing he looked at me with a "well duh!" expression and says , "I'm trying to start it!" I think he finally figured out something was wrong when we all started howling with laughter and asked, "WITH THE SHIFTER?" Amazingly the bike was fine. He didn't buy it.

I'm in an awkward position that my trials dealer for 20 years is now the importer and the trip to Vermont, when I buy a bike, is more of a social visit/pilgrimage then just picking up a bike. Does that make me a bad person? Here's the reason nobody will get rich doing trials. You're not a trials dealer because it's sound business. No investor would look at the business model of a trials dealer and say, " I gotta get me a piece of this action." You do it for two basic reasons. 1. It lets you get bikes for yourself and your buddies at a discount. (A problem with the trials business model) 2. You love the sport and want to help it grow. If you're a "dealer" to get a discount you are part of the problem. In a sport where 25 units may move per year in a radius of 200 miles 4 "dealers" buying bikes for their families and friends at dealer cost makes it impossible for a dealer who is in it for the money to remain viable. The other problem that I've seen is the Wal*Mart effect where one dealer is able to sell for less then all the other surrounding dealers effectively driving them out of business. If someone doesn't need the money from the MSRP markup they can very rapidly command the local market. Whether this is good or bad I can't say since a surplus of local dealers in a too small market feels too much like a pyramid scheme to me. To the local dealer who has invested in inventory and infrastructure with an eye towards making trials his primary income it is certainly bad but again it's just business. It is universally bad in one sense and that is where the small local dealer is a primary interface for new riders. Basically breaking down the distributed model of interaction where small "hotbeds" of activity spring up and with sufficient growth start to homogenize over an area. Lacking the impetus of the local dealer this falls mostly on individuals and clubs. OK so that leaves the dealers whose primary incentive is to "help" the sport whatever that means. If by help you mean grow the sport so that every Tom, Dick and Harry has a trials bike forget it. Trials takes an odd person who is willing to commit vast amounts of time and money to achieve small goals at considerable risk with very little appreciation. That may seem harsh but it has to be recognized. There are variances for some sports as they hit fad status for a brief time (skateboarding) but there seems fairly strong correlation between cost/risk and risk/reward. The other dynamic in sports that is overlooked is that team sport a metaphor for war. Team sports are tribal in nature. The human need to feel part of a group and to assert superiority is an inherent survival instinct. If you've ever said to a co-worker, "Did you see the game? I can't believe WE won." you're indoctrinated. This identification with a group whether it's Red Sox Nation or Manchester united is not a path open to an individualistic sport like trials. There is some brand identification which is all too obvious on this list but nothing that will bring in the kind of numbers of participants or sponsorship imagined by the majority of people involved with the sport. Motor sports in general suffer from a fundamental problem in the high cost to play and the low return on investment for the providers of the infrastructure. Trials is in one of the worst sports for this as it cost thousands of dollars just to get in the game but a pile of rocks will keep trials riders happy all day. Contrast that to the motor sport that makes the most money. Everyone holds out NASCAR as the shining example of how to make motor sports successful. Every person sitting in the stands is just an ATM machine to the infrastructure that is NASCAR and every one of them, once he's depleted of cash, gets back in his car to drive home in his fantasy world where he's a racer on the freeway. It may seem odd but the sports with the highest average pay seem to inversely correlate to the average income of the fanbase. The cost of a race car may seem to violate the cost/reward rule but NASCAR has an advantage in that everyone needs a car just for basic transportation so the cost of entry for the fan to feel part of the game is virtually nil. So can trials get bigger. Certainly but not without concerted effort, a clear plan and people willing to sacrifice. Will trials get big...No. No matter what we do this will always be a small sport populated by enthusiasts. We might have wow factor on our side but that wow factor is so far removed from the workaday world of the average person they will be amazed and then turn back to their American Idol. So to get back on subject, dealers who are in it to support the sport are getting their feelings hurt by riders who buy from somebody cheaper or on the internet. This means they have an emotional investment feeling that the local trials community owes them something for their effort. If a dealer cuts you a deal on a bike and somebody offers you a better deal on the next one they are just doing what the first dealer did to somebody else. If the value added of going to the same dealer re: on-site service, inventory isn't there then you can't feel insulted if a customer goes somewhere else. They don't owe you anything and the sooner you stop acting as if they do and figure out how to get them back the better it is for all involved. Being upset will just make the customer avoid you more and certainly won't win them back. Hmmm, that's a lot more then I expected to write.

Thanks but I can't take credit. A slightly misfit reed probably won't have a big effect. More likely you loosened up an obstruction in your jetting by taking the carb off and jiggling it around or sealed up an air leak in the carb/reed/engine interface. In any case I'm glad it's running good now. It's happy time. Go forth and play and I'll be envious as the woods here are still deep in snow.

Whacking the throttle open quickly tends to cause the bike to run lean because it drops the air speed through the carb. This is the reason for accelerator pumps. Any engine will do it under load if the throttle is opened fast enough but your bike may be jetted a bit lean so the situation is a bit worse. One factor to consider is temperature. If the air temperature is cold and your bike is jetted for summer then it helps to go up one size on the pilot and main jets. Just for starters you can try raising the needle one notch to see if that helps. Another thing that might cause this is a broken reed valve petal. At low throttle settings the carb is closed down so air velocity through the carb is fairly high and constant. An engine designed for a reed valve has aggressive intake timing. When a reed is broken mixture can blow back through the carb loading up the engine as it gets multiple passes through the carb until the engine can get up enough RPMs to keep the column of air in the intake moving forward even when the intake manifold is open on the piston down stroke. Reading the plug isn't going to tell you much for this since it is a transient condition and really doesn't affect plug temperature much. It's highly unlikely this has anything to do with ignition.

Careful Neil, Not only does Martin have ways to track you down but he's a big guy who could rip your arms off and beat you with them. Heh heh just kidding. (or am I?) Hi Martin!

I have one in the truck right now as I picked up the 08 today and had an Akropovic and VForce reed installed. Unfortunately we also had a pretty good snow storm yesterday so it will be a while before I can try it out. Pity, the ground was completely clear before.

Damn that thing sounds like a purring tiger. (the four legged kind, not the triumph) I want one.

Before you get into the whole carb drilling bit try just nippering a small hole near the top of the vent tubes. The reason the Betas pee fuel is the vent tubes are so long they end below the fuel level in the float bowl. The usual bouncing around on a trials bike occasionally causes fuel to get up into the vent tubes causing them to act as siphons. With a hole in the tube near the top the fuel just retreats back down into the float bowl. I've done it on at least four Rev3s and they have all stopped leaking fuel and show no ill effect. The Mikuni is a good carb but like most dirt bike carbs it was originally designed for the street where it wouldn't get bounced around so much or placed at such odd angles.

OK so I'm a bit touchy. Since I figured out this clutch improvement method my main concern was that people would take shortcuts and not only not see the benefits but make their clutches worse. Blame it on the engineer's paranoia that the exhilaration of the "Ah HA!" moment gets ruined by poor execution. It happens often. Dilbert cartoons are too real for many of us. If it makes you feel any better I get to do it again myself. I'm picking up my '08 Saturday. I'm psyched! Can't wait for that new bike smell. Oh yeah one other thing to note is that the pull is just the pull. In a static environment (engine off) the effect of the unfinished clutch plates is going to be extremely small. I'm actually surprised you measured any difference in clutch pull from dressing the plates. The question that is raised by the smoothing of the plates is how much force is required to move a fiber plate under side torque as is the case when the engine is running and the clutch is partially engaged. For that you would need to know the rotational torque pushing the fiber plates into the basket. Remember the heavier springs don't do their mojo until the clutch is starting to engage and the plates are wedged into the side of the basket. If they are jamming against the side of the basket and the springs are not heavy enough to overcome the drag then the plates will never sit flat to make full contact so all the friction material comes into play. On the flip side when the clutch is disengaged the plates are still jammed into the clutch basket sides and can't release until the side torque is reduced to less then required to slide the plates apart. That leads to another question. If the plates are not making even contact around the basket are they disengaging cocked in the basket grooves. This would cause the plates to skew in the stack and possibly warp. This may not be a bad thing though as the main mechanism for the plates disengaging may require this to some extent. Basket wear is definitely a consideration. One of the reasons I'll be fixing the clutch on the '08 before I even ride it so any unpolished edges on the plates don't wear themselves a groove. All this is academic though and the simple truth for me is I've never had a better clutch on a Beta then the one in the '05 with two springs out and the plates polished. The pull doesn't fatigue my clutch hand anymore, which used to be a major problem, and aside from the initial stickyness of the clutch from a cold start the clutch doesn't drag or stick all day and hasn't shown any signs of slipping. Even with my fat A** on the bike.

You guys aren't paying attention. Smoothing the rough edges of the fiber plate tabs, matching them to the clutch basket slots and then polishing the tabs MUST be done before reduction of the clutch spring pressure. The reason for the heavy clutch springs is the rough edges from the forging process on the tabs dig into the sides of the clutch basket slots causing the plates to not engage or disengage properly under load. Just removing the springs will make for a slippimg clutch but not due to insufficient spring pressure to hold the plates together but insufficient pressure to slide the plates together completely before they bind on the side of the clutch basket slots. Take a look at any of the really good accessory clutches and you'll see they use steel inserts in the clutch basket slots and polished ends on the fiber plates for just this reason. Either do it right or don't do it.

The absolute size doesn't matter. One size up from what you have in the carb already should fix it. An engine that surges is typically running a bit lean. Fairly common on a properly jetted bike once the weather gets colder. I try to carry +/- two sizes of main and pilot jets in my tool box. Just ordered a set for the new Beta since I have Mikuni jets in the toolbox but none for the Keihin. A good $12 investment.