Sponsorship. As in all things commercial - the actual amount of cash involved is a confidential matter between Sponsor, ACU and the Organisers who run the events are made aware of situation.
Let is not kid ourseleves - as someone else has already mentioned there is never going to be thousands of pounds in the way of sponsorship. Most firms do it for the love of the sport, some name/brand enhancment and to try to put something back in.
Now - as to money and Brit Champ.
The sponsorship money and a fairly hefty contribution by ACU all go into the pot.
From this come the following
Result service at each round - so that results are produced within minutes - on computer and in a standard format etc each event. Since we did this - I do not believe we have had any Protests or query - and the resuklts and awards presentation usually occur well within 30 mins of last rider.
These results are then emailed to Press, Trials Central etc - and I think the system is a lot better than it was - as many of you on this site requested me to do so. This service involves someone travelling to each round - including Ireland etc. This is paid for entirely by ACU - not sponsor.
Next - the sponsorship pot & ACU money is spent roughly like
Posters produced for each round - over 1000 for year
Programme covers produced for each round - over 3000 for year
These are usually posted out to each Club.
A set of Bibs - for all riders and all minders are produced.
Although this is a substantial initial cost - there is an on-going cost when bibs are lost/not returned or broken
The above is quite significant - because while the cost of 1 or 2 bibs is not huge - the fact that the screen printers etc have to set up for small quantity meansd they still charge set up fee's etc. The whole set also have to be replaced occasionally.
After each round - an allowance from sponsorship money is made for Club to launder and post bibs to next club - usually have to use a carrier.
Some money is allowed for Press costs in way of stamps, emails, telephone calls etc - that are not done by ACU.
At the end of it all - after the above expenses - the sum of money - sponsorship plus contribution from ACU is then divided up between the organisers.
In order to run the round they have obviously incurred costs - has people have already detailed - toilets, PA, Land Charge, - markers ( my own Club seem to replace one hell of a lot of these each year) We always have St Johns Ambulance and make a contribution to this. And so it goes on.
At the end of the day - the BC Organisers hopefully have not made a loss - because of this contribution - but equally all of us who run a round have not made much either.
If any Club are running Trials to make money only - I have honestly yet to see them. I think we all accept if we wish to do that we would be better off by far running a dance or boot sale on that Sunday. Running the BC takes us several months of hard work and planning
I believe we all do it - as we believe we are puitting something back - most Clubs I know are filled with ex-riders and enthusisats - and at the end of the day it is probably this that makes our sport what it is.
Am quite enjoying this debate - although the post by Elvis concerned me a little! I have always tried to keep an open mind on marking system - often believing we have used it to beat ourselves over the head with instead of just letting the vast majority - who probably do not really care a toss - and are quiote happy riding or organising week in week out.
I will not express too many of my thoughts - yet- but would ask you to remember that the marking for Brit Champ Trials is on Agenda for forthcomming BC meeting - so those who Organise/ride etc will have their say.
Going back to the posts - this really sums it up - just have a look at the diversity of replies - and some have already forseen the problems. If you were to count as a sort of vote each post I believe you would be hard pressed to see an easy solution -we can all analyse the problem - but each solution creates some more?
There is also quite a lot of comment about how riders are being severly disadvantaged? - perhaps we need to look at some numbers here and see how many are actualluy being affected? as opposed to how many gain by riding the same system in BC as they do week in week out?
Of course everyone would probably prefer 1 marking system - but the problem is they always want it to be theirs?
There can be no doubt that (shall we say more mature?) riders who enjoyed the days of full No-Stop prefer this system. Please remember that technology has also moved on - and whilst stopping say a Bultaco or Pre -65 and balancing for a bit was not that realistic - with modern bikes it is a lot easier.
Also take into account that in some areas the reduction of available land - meant smaller pocket handkerchief type courses ,often without nice natural stream beds etc and tighter - up a bank and round a stick type sections started to prevail a litte- most of us older riders do not like this - but it is no good pretrending it did not/ does not exist.
I cannot see any logic in any argument that say's " We only want one system" - but then go on to say it should be FIM , or TSR 22 etc.
It is also rather absurd to expect all those - (granted mostly Twinshock/Pre-65 , Scottish etc) who are more than happy with Full No-stop to change - it is just not going to happen.
So - if you want 1 system only - it would have to be Full No-Stop - all other discussuion at present can be rather futile - but it is not a fair argument for those who have and enjoy Full No-Stop to demand 1 system only as a means of forcing everyone on to theirs.
At present Full No-Stop does nowt to help those who ride FIM, UEM etc and very little for the thousands of riders who for years now have been quite happy with TSR 22 ( addopted remember to fall into line with FIM when they abondonded the hopping and the bopping)
So - without a return to Full No-Stop - which I thought the FIM may have done ( watch the video clip with Dougie, uji and Amos on TC) - we will certainly be left with at least 2 systems - and possibly 3.
The realistic options are:
Full No-Stop for all trials - great if FIM did same - but not going to happen at present
TSR 22 & No-Stop - as is - including the Brit Champ
TSR 22 or No-Stop as is for all otherevents - but FIM for Brit Solo Champ.
Whichever option we choose is a no -win situation really. If we stay as we are for BC - for sure young riders do not ride under FIM format in Brit Champ - which is a stepping stone for them may be disadvantaged - not sure that the degree iof this is not exagerated?
If we change to FIM - more Observers or at least Timekeepers are needed - and the bit that bother me most - there may well be an increase in severity in some sections.
The argument that is is easy to find personnel at World level so why not at home - is not really valid - it is a different situation. Clubs who are struggling to find Observers now - will not find extra guys running to them offering to hold a watch. Also we all know the difficulty of finding Observers ( or at least we should) - to pee them all off is for me the worst case scenario.
Incidentally I have got someone enquiring as to the feasibility of producing some small cheap electronic type timers - ie press button - and say 2 mins later a buzzer sounds. This would allow Observer to time without looking at watch etc? Perhaps some clever electronic wizard out there could advice?
The important thing - and this is essential is that any altering of present marking system does not balls things up for the week in week out events which we all enjoy.
I see enough problems on the horizon with land access etc wiothout making more of our own - so there is no easy solution - and certainly not a lot to be gained to try to make everyone jump onto an FIM waggon that is far from that stable anyway.
Finally - is there anyone out there who is actually convince that the present FIM system is now set is stone and not likely to change for say 5 yrears?
This is a difficult and time consuming subject - but perhaps I can at least through a little light on a few of the comments so far.
First - and I am afraid there is no question about this - The Clerk of the Course is responsible for each and every aspect of every event - regardless of discipline. Trials is no different. The C/Course has a Duty of Care to everyone at the event - and any Public who may be involved.
Perhaps next time we all moan ( and I too have done it) about this or that at a Trial - or criticise the C/Course as being out of touch or an old fart etc we should all remember that this is the guy who is putting his ( or hers) name down as the person who will take responsibility for one hell of a lot - just so we can enjoy our sport.
From an ACU perspective - our main objective will always be to try to provide as best protection for this guy and the organisers as we can. This often makes the ACU ( and remember that is all of us - not some mythical body somewhere - for we are a Union of Clubs and its members) being accused of too much paperwork/rules/regulations - and there is some truth in this - but we try to err on the cautious perhaps?
This protection for the Clerk of Course - often tends us try to second guess potential problems - even before they occur and try to put measures into place.
I believe our insurance for Organisers is second to none - and certainly protects the Clerk of Course, and we spend a lot of time trying to work on this and provide good solid cover. This is really the reason we licence all our Clerks of Course while other organuisations do not - it is often seen as just more ACU beuracraucy - as is many of the other things we do - but all ACU Committees feel this is an obligation we must meet. Please also remeber that ACU Committee people are not by usually proffession lawers and are just riders or past riders such as those who read these posts. We can only take advice, pay for advice and listen to what others tell us.
Now back to RA. Every Clerk of Course has always done it ,eg- How often have we planned a route so as not to have had two way traffic - or if we have - we have put in control measures ( tape/fence.marshal/notice etc)
We have taken into account - not just the risk within a section - but what would happen if a rider went out of control ? so we tend to keep sections away from the edge of a serious drop etc. Over recent years we have paid more and more regard to where spectators/public ( remember anyone who is not a rider is public) can stand. We have put in controls to protect Observers etc.
All this we have always done - from attention to Car park, toilets, and so it goes on.
What we probably have not done - well I certainly have not - is to write any of this down- and therefore turn it into a formal risk assessment.
Now - the whole area of H & S and Risk assessment is heavily steeped in what happens in industry and the workplace and for numerous years we hoped and prayed that this is where it would stay. Unfortunately it looks as if this is not the case and the H & S executive will apply their standards to Sport.
We obviously have to take advice on these issues and this will be done.
Those Clubs who run in Forestry Commission land - especially Enduro's have for some time had to produce a Risk assessment - and all indications were that Trials - and all other events would have to follow suit.
As a Committee we had to try to strike a balance in not using another ACU sledgehammer to crack a nut - but also to try to assist our Organisers.
Some time ago we produced a fairly simple document which was a very basic form of Risk Assessment. It was really a sort of attempt at recording obvious things we already do - and listing controls/precautions etc. It was not too onerous and was probably a good starting point.
It was not really about identyfying hazards within sections - these will always be there - but more trying to identify and stipulate other things such as Car park, route, spectator access etc.
Those who are already dealing with RA as part of their jobs - very quickly would see this as a rather too simple solution to RA - as they are obviously more used to doing a more formal 5 step plan.
It was however a start - and we clearly indicated to potential Organisers that if they already had a format ( as many would have people in their clubs well used to doing RA) - they could certainly use their own and we were just trying to give them a starting point.
More recently - we have produced another RA form -more similar to Industrial type practice - but I personally feel it is rather more onerous ( although probably more correct)
I too have qualifiactions in RA - but I find that trying to calculate the Liklehood/Severity calculations for a motorcycle event is rather daunting and I still hope we can arrive at a more simple solution.
The present situation is that we send out the forms as an example - and hope they are a help - especially the simple one - for those Organisers who have been recording nothing.
There is still debate on what we should or should not be doing - and the ACU as a body are investigating and will be taking advice. It is not as simple as just asking H & S - as they are not inclined to give such advice - merely point out responsibilities.
The whole matter is under urgent review - and surely more will follow. I hope I have just brought you up to date.
Please do not set off on a Brit Champ debate in amongst Calendar changes etc - things are complicated enough already.
Re - Calendar.
The calendar published is the National & International Calendar. Not just Championship calendar.
Potential organisers - even at Centre level - often wish to see this - not just to avoid clashes with Champ events - but others of note - and ones which they know from experience potential riders will be at.
So - National calendar is published - and from this are selected various Championship rounds - which can be identified from Champ column - or perhaps easier from list at end.
Please remember these are still changing - and there will certainly be two more added to Ladies Championship - and I expect at least 1 probably 2 orgainisers to try for the experimental Sammy Miller rounds that can be run off road.
It is true that with revised ( hopefully simpler ) Permit structure - Organisers will possibly not run as Nationals - but this is up to them - and it is not easy to determine at present who will wish to retain that National status.
Personally - I have stated before - I would like to revert to " Nationals" being something special - where a rider knows the event will be of high standard - regardless of Championship. To this end - I believe many Oerganisers will wish to retain this .
Surely some events do not need the Championship tag - to be excellent and attract good entries - they are just that Special National - I can give you no better example than the Scott.
Also - with the already stated intention of trying to keep some events fresh - and not run too many just for sake of it - certain events will drop out from time to time - this categorically does not mean they were poor events - far from it - often the best can stand alone - and help us to get this system started. People complained ( rightly so) of over complicated calendar - and to many fixtures - this year we have made a start to try to fix it - but I am sure it will not be plain sailing - we can but try.
This is especially so in Youth - where we were clearly told that last year was a balls up - with parents having to trawl uop and down motorway on successive weekends etc. It was a fair point - so we have tried to spead the events over more of a 10 month or so period - and try to keep things very light in May/June ( School exam time) We have also tried where possible to use events with AB/ CD on same weekend - more or less same area.
I do not intend to be changing dates etc forever and a day - as this is certainly not fair to normal Centre events - Nov is already far too late - but FIM & UEM have dictated this - so hopefully within a few days the calendars wil be finalised ( keep saying this but it never actually seems to get there!)
Finally - by all means have your say re - Brit Champ - but I think it needs a separate post
I will repeat however - that all the things like Marking system, Practice, No of Laps etc etc etc -will be discussed at the normal British Champ Organisers meeting - and it is after this that decisions for 06 will be finalised
This will be included in British Championship on top Championship route and on the Expert route - so the severity will be exactly the same as for any other capacity in those Championships.
Same for Novogar.
Riders up to 21 - so not necessarily youth riders.
Re - meeting about Brit Champ. This is normal - we usually invite Championship Riders/Importers as well as Importers. This year we felt it correct to invite some Expert riders - hence top 6 are invited.
If past experience is anything to go by - not a lot of riders attend - but at leat we have tried - and I think it important not to just assume what Expert rider want - and so some are invited.
Sorry should have mentioned that - but there are lots of details that must follow - I was just trying to give overall picture.
125 Class - riders Under 21 on Jan st year of competition
O/40 Class - riders Over 40 on Jan 1st year of competition.
Re - Brit Champ - as stated the meeting for this is not until Dec - but there are certainly no pre-conceived ideas from T&E to drop Youth Class ie the top 5 youth riders - but as with all such meetings the agenda is open to discussion.
The calendar has now been sent out - and I see it has been copied form Bob Mullis site. It was also sent to TC at same time if not before!
The Championship conditions/regulations are about to be sent to the Organisers - and a little tweeking may be done to a few over next few days.
The British Solo Chamopionship Conditions/Format etc will not be finalised until after meeting with Orgainisers in Dec. Champ riders and top 6 Expert Class will also be invited to meetings along with Importers etc.I can confirm that Brit Champ - both Champ and Expert Clas will include a 125cc class next year.
Just a few other things prior to condition confirmation - mostly as discussed at recent Trials Forum that some of you atended - and report was published in TC
Novogar. Will include 125 Class and also Over 40 Class.
Single route - but organisers will be expected to revert to original concept i.e a course for good Centre type Clubman - not the very riders who are already cated for in Brit Champ - they can of still ride - but the section severity is not to be aimed at these top lads.
Classic - O/40 ( modern bike) Class still included
O/50 ( modern bike) Clas will be added.
Again Orgainisers will be asked to ensure that section severity is aimed at those it was intended for.
Sammy Miller series: Twinshocks - will now be open to all makes - not just Spanish.
Easier route still available as it is now - but MUST be marked with sidecars in mind.
Trailbikes - ( Non Championship Class) - can ride Hard or easy route.
In most Championships there has been a reduction in the number of rounds - it is intended to monitor Stewards reports etc more closely in future and rotate the rounds around the Clubs. Some Organisers will obviously be dissaponted if they are not awarded in a particular season - but we see this as the only way of trying to keep championships alive and refreshing for entrants.
As stated at National Forum and posted in report - drawing up National dates is becoming ever more difficult.
We are aiming to avoid as many clashes as possible - and try to start with British Solo Championship. These dates cannot be finalised until FIM and UEM dates are finalised. FIM Congress is this weekend - hopefully their dates are then done - and UEM dates are then confirmed. All goes wrong if one or two of FIM dates have a problem - and they have to change - as this then usually forces a UEM change - which forcers us to change a Brit Champ - and so it goes on. Remember we have quite a lot of Youth and Women also competing FIM / UEM
I hope that if FIM are confirmed this weekend - we can try to confirm ours next weekend - or at least most of them - and should be finalised by 1st week in Nov. As I have said - this is the theory at least - don't hold your breath - but I hope so.
I read somewhere else about more Brit Champ rounds held in winter months - I think Graham Jarvis had suggested it would be a good idea.
There is no real problem here - but I have to tell you that most =- if not all applications tend to favour the months which are kinder weather wise.
Also it was not very long ago that we had to avoid the Indoor World Championship and other Indoor events - which are in the early part of the year. Dougie and Graham and sometimes a few others were competing in these then - so dates for Brit Champ were not availabe till after Indoor season.
Does not cause the same problem now - as it probably only affects Dougie - so Graham is available in Winter months ?
We do of course have to make sure that any up and comming riders such as Shaun or James - and certainly the few very promising Youth riders should they get chance to compete indoors in the future are afforded the same opportunities as past contenders - but at present - as far as we know - should Organisers wish to run in Winter I see no big problem.
My Club I think would probably laugh I think at the suggestion to run St David's in winter for wetter weather. After several years of monsoon in AUG - we are moving to march and are hoping for drier weather!
Have managed to produce a report on Trials Forum - but it is obviously quite a few pages long - not sure best way to post it on site - if someone lets me know I will try to send it in before TDN - if not after
Good points John but surely the acceptance of riders of Tom Sagars ability as "contenders" for the title after winning it recently has surely meant the severity has been way too hard for centre experts never mind clubman. Also this " aimed at clubman" thing should be in the regs and an idea of what defines a clubman aswell perhaps? if it was a bit easier it could also incorporate an over 40 championship which is sadly misplaced in the classic series.
Accepted - perhaps we have to look seriouisly at number of times you can win a Championship like this - ride by all means - but perhaps we need to consider that perhaps you could only defend it once?
As to definition of Clubmen - agree - but not so easy to come up with definition that works for all Centes - as I have said in my letter to mike rapley - a Clubman in Neath - is a hell of a lot difrent from a Clubman in Silsden?
I have also stated in reply to Mike that a few years ago when it was ACU Clubmans Chamopionship ( after original MCN Clubmans) - a few riders wrote into us and critrisiced that they had travelled and ridden in a so called Clubmans round - which was far to hard - and should not have been decscribed as such =- I think they were right - and so we dropped the term - and just caklled it Novogar - although I think the original intentions still remained.
Anyway - please just give me a day or two to try to download the reply I am sending to Mike ( done on airplane on way home from Germany Enduro using an old Psion 3 and a cocktauil stick - you see the problem for the ACVU fatcats!) and I will [post my rather extensive thoughts - then we can open up debate - and I alreday have it on agenda for ACU Trials Forum
Re - Novogar and posts re - severity etc and two routes.
" Original" is spot on I think when he reminds us that once you have two routes in this sort of Championship - the Expert route gets harder and harder and is just for a few - and the danger is that he Clubmen rote becomes an add -on.
Novogar is intended for Clubmen - OK they may well have to be reasonable Centre Clubmen. If the Experts from the Brit Champ choose to ride - OK - but it should not be aimed at them - and I see no problem in them loosing a very low number of marks.
It was Mike Rapley who has raised the topic in T & MX news - and I have just drafted a reply to him -almost finished and I will then email it to Mike. I think it fair he gets to read this first It is very long - as I have tried to cover quite a few points. After Mike gets the original - I will try my best to shorten it as much as possible - it will still be long - and Andy can decide if it is worthy of posting etc.
Finally - please note the intention will probably be to reduce the number of Novogar rounds in 2006 - as the Calendar ( as I have stated previously) was just too croweded last year.
One of the criteria we will certainly be looking at in selecting rounds is the ability of Organisers to stick to the original concept as stated above ie - a good traditional long lap trial - aimed at Clubmen ( as stated probably good Centre level)
There seems to be several issues here - and I will try to address at least some of them.
Firstly - Re And'ys point about difficulty in obtaining results/placings for various Championships. At start of year - I promised there would be an improvement in what is sent out.
I have just checked each and every Email I have received from Mick Wren - who co-ordinates the Novogar - and sends me a series update after every round - and in each and every case - Trials Central is included in the mailing - the last one I have being 20th July. - Trials Central are most definitely on list - so received it at same time as all at ACU.
I have checked the British Solo Championship - and again - in each and every case - the results I have been sent - usually within an hour of the event being finished - also list Trials Central as having received them at same time. I will check on some other Championships after the weekend - but am fairly sure updates have been sent in.
Now - to the case in point about Youth Trials in IOW - and without going down the rabbit hole of big trucks and other tosh.
Riders from IOW. IOM, N. Ireland have year after year suppoprted mainland Championships. To me - it seems only fair and equitable that these venues be awarded Championships on occasion. Of course they will be more difficult to get to - but as long as they are not held on too frequent occasions - surely they should be supported ?
The riders from these places have also found it expensive over the years - and remember it is not just once a year for them - but sometimes every week.
With this in mind - we have in past few years awarded Sammy Miller Championships to IOW, British Champ to Ireland - and Sidecar to IOM - in each case their riders have been good supporters of the events - and it is only fair to see a round held on their home ground occassionaly.
Very often - people enjoy the actual feeling of being " off - the mainland" - and tell me it is rather like being abroad - without the language to contend with. Not everyone rides UEM and World rounds - and so the experience of travelling slightly further afield can be a good one.
There is a danger in only running rounds of any Championship just in the most convenient/popular places - as far too ofetn it means that everything lands up North of Brum.
We in Wales - have also suffered poor entries in many events over the years - due to distance to travel etc - and there is a danger that eventually organisers just say - stuff it - why bother with a Championship at all - lets just cater for our own lads?
Just a few months ago - we were all extremely worried that we had little venues to ride on - now just a few months later we seem to have forgotten - and wish to be more selective - well watch this space - for I have a horrible feeling that by Spring next year we could all well be down on our knees begging the likes of IOW, IOM and Ireland to help us out.
If the IOW - as seems obviouis have made all this efort to put on such an event - it needs suppoprt - end of story.
Now - there seems to be quite a fair amount of desire that the ACU provide a large truck - appoint people who have shown no interest so far as full time coaches - and presumably people to drive it around etc.
I have seen a few proposals thrown about - what I have yet failed to see are any actual costings - perhaps someone would care to draw up a few estimates - and then at least we could discuss it sensibly
Spanish Federation - are much quoted buy Uncle Tom Cobbly and all as providing all these things - and many are envious - I myself am probably envious - as the people who hold positions such as mine in the Spanish Federation are on a wage - I am on sod all.
The fact is that in order to have sensible debate - we need to look at how the Spanish raise their funds - I will try to gleen some facts for a future post - but just a few simple facts to digest not to waste peoples time
a) Forget the drivel you have recently read in TMX about Road Race taking all the money and us poor Trials riders having to subsidise them - this is categorically not - I repeat not the case - in fact the shoe is well on the other foot - and when the Road racers start perhaps to question the figures - and ask where their money is all going please direct your dismay at someone else ( all Centres now have in their possesion the actual figures of licence money raised etc)
c) Do we know the actulal figures of riders who contribute via licences/levies in Spain/France etc - I know we are passionate about our sport - but we are a small island - and I suspect we need to compare our number of riders with theirs as well as how entry fee's are divided up.
I am fairly sure - there is a fairly good contribution from events back into the Federations in other countries as well as licence fee - we do not work on this system. For every event - there is very little if any flow back of money into our Federation - the initial Permit is bought for less than a packet of fags - and except for the
Therev is quite a good article on all sorts of wheel related matters found on sight below ( may have given you too much info in address - just copied it from address bar)
Yes - we will also look at it again after 2 rounds - no problem - but - riders who ride the first round - and score points should surely then be able to continue onto the second.
Also as I have said before - we get names of some very good riders - who registaer to just perhaps do their own local round - and do not do any others - this is not a problem when there is space - but we must give priority to the regular riders.
As also previously stated - the list is far from an exact science - and often seems a lot of work for a result which is not that satisfactory - and one critisicm ( fair I think) is that is sometimes difficult for a rider who did not contest the series the previous year ( perhaps he could not get an entry) - to then be very high up a list based initially on results he could not possibly have achieved ( think that makes sense ? )
So - the first round - if it has places - is a good chance for such a rider to show his potential .
I know it sounds complicated - and I have previously sated we will look at it again in future to improve it. The DEFRA situation complicated things this year - but now we are back on track we will look at the list after round 1 and 2 at least
As everyone knows - the St Davids - round 1 if Brit Champ was cancelled so Mitchell - May 29th now becomes first round.
The organisers are working hard - but inform us there are still some entries available.
At the start of each year we receive complaints from people who do not believe they are high enough the entry priority list - cannot get a ride in series etc - only to find at first round - many have not entered !
We always re- do the lists after the first round - so here is a chance for some riders to move swiftly up the priority order.
There has probably been a fair bit iof confusion and dismay through the DEFRA situation - with some doubts about exactly which British Champ rounds were on/off - but the message thankfully now is everything appears to be back on song - only Round 1 was cancelled - and we will certainly be looking at the calendars to see if the St David's can be re-scheduled for a later part of year.
The drawing up of the list of " priority" riders - and then the B & C list is no easy task - and to be honest I am not convinced we are doing it accurately enough.
The problem usually arises when trying to compare the results of different riders - in different events
For example - How does a 12th place in a particular National - compare with 12th place in another. Views on performance in Scottish and Scott - tend to vary greatly.
It gets even worse when you try to compare the results in various Centre Championships - and although riders quite rightly wish their accompishments noted - the variance in Centres is huge - a rider who beats another in a Centre Champ - believes he should be in front of that rider in Brit Champ list - even if the first rider competes in lots of other Nationals etc etc.
It is far from an exact science - in fact it is miles from any sort of science - but what is the option ? Just throw it open - first come first served? Sec examines post box each morning ? Which letter fell through box first ? as entries get full - then wait for complaining phone calls - sorry -(been there done that )- and have sympathy for Scottish sec and Secs at most proper Enduro's now.
I should also mention - that whilst at the outset of the year many are dissapointed at not getting priority entry - each and every year there are events without full adult entry - and so those lowere down the list have opportunity to ride and show thier performance for following year?
This year also of course - with the Masters class now dropped - those riders whose names were on it - now appear in the Expert Class - and whilst they are certainly good riders - and would be high on the list - as I have previously explained - we are sure that many of them only intend to perhaps ride once or twice - and that is why they put names forward.
With this in mind - each year - after both the first & second rounds - the list is re- done - and this usually eliminates the non-attenders and those whose intentions do not always match their ability so to speak.( been there and done that)
Now - to Waynes point - It does look to me that there are a few mistakes - or certainly inaccuracies present - this will be looked at in next few days.
Also - please note that it should say somewhere - Draft 1 - which means exactly that - and allows for errors/changes / wrong inf given to us etc to be ironed out for Draft 2 - and if req draft 3,4 ,5 and so on.
Now - to the future - I have already stated the difficulty in doing it
( it may be a good exercise if we have the time to try to do it as a post on this site - and see if we arrive at so me sort of concencous - or as I suspect we land up in controversy - but I will leave that for now)
- We acept it needs more accuracy
So - intention is for 2006 in first instance will be
Results obviiously taken from any FIM/UEM events
Then - performance in British Champ, Novogar, Youth, and then the diffrence wil be - " a named list of Nationals" - so every rider will know these are to be looked at - as a sort of Qualifying event - and the performance in these events can be more fairly equate I cannot promise it will be 100% straight off - but it would seem a better direction to go in.
The list of these Nationals that will count toward 2006 will be announced very shortly ( will obviously not be able to include those already gone this year or about to run)
We must assume of course with the above that the format for Brit Champ remains basically the same - or else the above idea will not really mean a lot.
This brings me on to Ishy's point - that I must say is often made - if we have all these riders wishing to ride in the Champ - why not just open it up and take huge entries - and let everyone ride? - another topic for debate perhaps? - but it probably needs a new post - however I will say - that Ishys idea that these trials would be great - and the top riders would just have to put up with the easy sections - and like it - is not necessarily so - and in my experience the trials soon tend to cater for the top 10 -15 and within a matter of months the events are exceptionally hard for most riders outside top 40.
We already have the Novogar - which works well for the large number - the Brit Champ is there to cater in a smal number of events for the best 55 riders. ( and allows the topm 5 Youth a chance to compete on the same stage) Sure it can be regarded as a circus by some, - it is certainly not perfect and can be looked at - but I believe that the present Brit Champ actually protects the large, enjoyable Nationals as the C/Course can mark easier enjoyable sections - and swiftly tell any top riders " you have the Brit Champ - if these are too easy for you" ??
I will refrain at this point of mentioning the early Novogar rounds - as it will be interesting to see if the few top names that rode had any influence on severity?
We had quite a lot of good sensible debate on this topic in Nov - and I explained in detail etc how it was formed - its intended purpose and the fact that a decision would have to be taken.
I note from the latest posts that as few people are disappointed - and I certainly echo that view. I still believe the Master Class was a good stepping stone - as well as allowing the Clerk of Course a little flexibility.
It will as - someone else has said be introduced into Welsh Champ this year - and reports are that it is good.
The trouble is with any further debate on the matter is that we shoot off on a tangent about the pro's and cons of the whole Champ format - and while that is in itself perhaps an interesting debate for future posts - but is not really here and now.
I will therefore try to just give a few facts in relation to present position.
As stated in Nov - it was apparent that a Master Class of perhaps 2 or 3 riders was not really achieving the intended result. SO - it was decided that unless 10 realistic names came forward - we would reluctantly drop it.
Note: A good point was made by Chris - on Nov 30th - that 10 names would obviously not mean 10 riders - and that to be realistic we should have around 15-20. I acknowledged this.
Also note - that year after year - we get names - who though certainly eligible - and would make the Class quite good - they then do not ride - or certainly only ride in perhaps the one local event.
Also - Obviously in Championship Class - you only accept riders of some proven record/ability - and equally - in the Master Class - we really only wish to see riders who have a proven record/ability in the Expert Class - or some sort of past ability which can be validated i.e. - it is not sensible or desirable - to take someone straight into the Masters class - he/she should have some experience lower down - this is not going to change.
So - To run Master Class in 05 - we stated we required an absolute minimum of 10 riders.
Now where I object strongly - is to a post such as "trialsboy" - who having far more information and knowledge than a poor soul such as myself - regards the fact that 10 riders did not apply as
Appleyard Sponsorship
in UK Trials Talk
Posted · Edited by John Collins
Some observations on this one.
Sponsorship. As in all things commercial - the actual amount of cash involved is a confidential matter between Sponsor, ACU and the Organisers who run the events are made aware of situation.
Let is not kid ourseleves - as someone else has already mentioned there is never going to be thousands of pounds in the way of sponsorship. Most firms do it for the love of the sport, some name/brand enhancment and to try to put something back in.
Now - as to money and Brit Champ.
The sponsorship money and a fairly hefty contribution by ACU all go into the pot.
From this come the following
Result service at each round - so that results are produced within minutes - on computer and in a standard format etc each event. Since we did this - I do not believe we have had any Protests or query - and the resuklts and awards presentation usually occur well within 30 mins of last rider.
These results are then emailed to Press, Trials Central etc - and I think the system is a lot better than it was - as many of you on this site requested me to do so. This service involves someone travelling to each round - including Ireland etc. This is paid for entirely by ACU - not sponsor.
Next - the sponsorship pot & ACU money is spent roughly like
Posters produced for each round - over 1000 for year
Programme covers produced for each round - over 3000 for year
These are usually posted out to each Club.
A set of Bibs - for all riders and all minders are produced.
Although this is a substantial initial cost - there is an on-going cost when bibs are lost/not returned or broken
The above is quite significant - because while the cost of 1 or 2 bibs is not huge - the fact that the screen printers etc have to set up for small quantity meansd they still charge set up fee's etc. The whole set also have to be replaced occasionally.
After each round - an allowance from sponsorship money is made for Club to launder and post bibs to next club - usually have to use a carrier.
Some money is allowed for Press costs in way of stamps, emails, telephone calls etc - that are not done by ACU.
At the end of it all - after the above expenses - the sum of money - sponsorship plus contribution from ACU is then divided up between the organisers.
In order to run the round they have obviously incurred costs - has people have already detailed - toilets, PA, Land Charge, - markers ( my own Club seem to replace one hell of a lot of these each year) We always have St Johns Ambulance and make a contribution to this. And so it goes on.
At the end of the day - the BC Organisers hopefully have not made a loss - because of this contribution - but equally all of us who run a round have not made much either.
If any Club are running Trials to make money only - I have honestly yet to see them. I think we all accept if we wish to do that we would be better off by far running a dance or boot sale on that Sunday. Running the BC takes us several months of hard work and planning
I believe we all do it - as we believe we are puitting something back - most Clubs I know are filled with ex-riders and enthusisats - and at the end of the day it is probably this that makes our sport what it is.