billyt

Moto VS DH - Which Helmet is Safer for Cycling? Among many gravity riders, there is a common assumption that Motocross helmets are safer than full-face bicycle helmets. On the surface, that seems like a sensible notion: Motocross helmets are larger and heavier than mountain bike lids, and having more material between your head and the ground in a crash is a good thing, right? Downhill helmets and Motocross helmets may look similar, but there is a key difference between them. Unfortunately, it may not be that simple. There is an ongoing debate in the motorcycle industry about how stiff a helmet should be to offer maximum protection. A number of critics have suggested that many motorcycle helmets, particularly those made to meet the demanding SNELL certification standard, are engineered to be so rigid that they actually offer less protection in the most common types of crashes. What does this mean to you as a mountain biker? If you choose to wear a Motocross helmet instead of a bicycle helmet when you ride downhill, it could mean a lot. Which Test is Best? To understand why the motorcycle helmet debate matters to bicycle riders, you have to understand the testing demands that these helmets are engineered to meet. Common testing procedures for motorcycle helmets seek to simulate the crashes that a rider could encounter on the road. The tests at helmet labs routinely drop helmets onto differently shaped objects from considerable heights. These intense impacts make sense considering the energy levels involved when a motorcyclist's head strikes the ground (or another vehicle) at highway speeds. The testing used by the SNELL Memorial Foundation, a non-profit group that has certified motorcycle helmets for decades, involves even greater stresses than the standard Department of Transportation (DOT) testing that a helmet must pass to be sold in the U.S. The latest SNELL certification standard (M2010) requires that a helmet transmit less than 275 g-forces to the headform inside of the helmet in any part of the testing - a process that involves some very severe impacts. Helmet testing at Moelfre Hall. Aaron Hilton violates the keep-the-rubber-side-down rule - hugely so. Turnip Towers photo According to critics, trouble arises from the substantial stiffness that motorcycle helmets must employ to manage these very severe impacts in the SNELL testing. In a sense, the energy absorbing EPS foam inside a helmet works the same way as the suspension on a mountain bike. Just as the suspension on your bike absorbs the energy and slows the impacts from bumps and drops, a helmet is made to absorb the energy that your head encounters in a crash. In most crashes, the helmet's primary job is to slow your head down so it doesn't take the full force of the impact. It's the EPS foam inside of the helmet, rather than the helmet's outer shell, that handles most of this task. The foam is designed to compress upon impact, slowing your head as it does so. But if the foam fails to slow your head sufficiently, your brain will smack into the inside of your skull, causing a concussion. And if the helmet really fails at this task, the consequences are usually grim. The problem with a very stiff helmet liner - one engineered to withstand the brutal impacts a motorcyclist on the street could encounter - is the same problem you'd find with a downhill bike that's been set up specifically to withstand ten-foot drops to flat. The helmet with its super-stiff liner won't be compliant enough to cushion smaller impacts, just as the downhill bike with super-stiff suspension won't effectively cushion small and medium-sized hits. Kali's Prana Downhill helmet passes the US DOT and the European ECE 22.05 helmet standards, but does not pass the SNELL standards. Recent information indicates that this may be a good thing. Ian Hylands photo When it comes to brain trauma, small and medium-sized hits matter. Neurologists have learned many new things about the effects of concussions in recent years, and the news usually isn't good for those who've suffered them. Repeated blows to the head have been correlated with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a brain condition linked to the deaths of some retired NFL players. All of this has led researchers to suspect that concussions may be much more dangerous than previously imagined. Critics also point to the fact that it doesn't take multiple concussions to change a person's life. Even a single concussion can cause problems with cognition and memory that can last indefinitely. James Newman, a former director of the SNELL Foundation, has estimated that impacts of 200 g's or more - 75 g's less than the figures required for Snell M2010 certification - typically correspond to severe brain injuries or worse. Alex Mancini Supermans into a rock garden at Contermanskloof, South Africa - probably happy that his helmet is certified to withstand a sharp impacts. Steven Morrow photo Experts square off So are the motorcycle helmets being made to SNELL standards too stiff? According to a 2005 article by Motorcyclist magazine, DOT helmets outperformed their SNELL counterparts in independent tests that were designed to simulate slow- to medium-speed crashes. This wasn't especially surprising, though, since DOT helmets aren't typically engineered to be stout enough to meet SNELL standards, which means they theoretically should be more compliant in small crashes. What was surprising was that the DOT helmets also transmitted fewer g's than the SNELL-certified helmets in the highest-energy impacts as well, raising the question of whether SNELL testing had truly become too rigorous for its own good. Ironically, the best performer in the 32-helmet Motorcyclist test was a $79.95 DOT-certified helmet, which transmitted as much as 67 g's less in violent impacts than a $400 SNELL lid. After publication of the article, SNELL issued a rebuttal that questioned Motorcyclist's testing methods (although since then, SNELL has moved toward requiring more compliant liners in its testing -- one of the chief points of the Motorcyclist article). But the rebuttal didn't stop the controversy from growing. The debate reached a boiling point in 2009 when Dexter Ford, the author of the 2005 Motorcyclist article, wrote a story on the issue for the New York Times. Shortly after that article ran, Motorcyclist fired Ford, a veteran of three decades with the magazine, allegedly due to boycott threats from helmet manufacturers. The 2005 story no longer appears on the Motorcyclist website. Kali Protectives Founder Brad Waldron at work with one of his full-face DH helmets. Ian Hylands photo Talking Helmets With Kali's Brad Waldron Brad Waldron, a long-time helmet designer and a product-testing fanatic, agrees that a more compliant shell offers more protection for lower-speed impacts typically seen in DH and Park riding. We asked Brad to comment on the differences between Moto and Downhill helmets, and the possible benefits of less-rigid shell construction. -RC Yes, on average DH helmets are more flexible. One of the biggest reasons for this is that the DOT test for MX helmets requires a penetration test that forces the use of a stiffer shell. The test basically drives a pointed anvil directly through the shell. SNELL believes that having a more rigid shell saves lives at the highest end of the crash spectrum, while sacrificing concussions on the lower end. I just had this discussion at the Indy motorcycle show with SNELL. I think there are arguments to this as well, but arguing the benefits of SNELL is not where I am looking to go in this discussion. Rigid shells are worse at low-speed impacts. I believe that you want the shell to deform as soon as reasonably possible. Remember, a body in motion stays in motion until acted upon by a force. If your head hits a hard shell, your brain will continue in motion until it hits the other side of your skull. If on the other hand, the shell starts to break down and the foam is soft enough, then the dissipation of energy is starting quicker and your brain moves slower. Slowing down your brain moving inside your head is a good thing. Our technology is to in-mold the foam with full-shell helmets, we found that when we in-molded, but did not change the stiffness of the shell, that we saw little benefits. When we made the shell much less stiff, we lowered g-forces 20-percent and more. So I am a big fan of less-stiff shells. There are limits though. You have to balance and tune the shell's stiffness to make sure it is not too soft. This kind of testing takes much time and energy. Not everyone is willing to put in an effort of such magnitude. Making the choice All of these facts raise a number of concerns for mountain bikers who choose motocross lids. If it's true that some top-of-the-line motorcycle helmets may be too stiff for even highway motorcycle use, what does that mean to riders who use them for downhill, where the speeds are typically much slower? Are downhill riders better off choosing helmets that were engineered for the crashes they'll likely face on a downhill course, rather than those engineered for 75-mph trips into car barriers? While that choice remains up to you as a rider, it's clear that there are some good reasons to think twice before opting for a motocross helmet over one engineered for bicycles. This is particularly true since ASTM F1952 - a downhill-specific helmet safety certification - now appears on many bicycle helmets, giving gravity riders a discipline-specific standard of their own. Regardless of where the controversy over helmets ends, choosing the right helmet for your type of riding deserves your attention - at least to the extent you value your head.

Some Down Hill Sanctioned Full Faced Helmets. Notice how they slope down at the front........

This is an interesting post. I live in Arizona and my friend and I have been thinking about full face helmets. We took it upon ourselves to get educated by reading and speaking to people in the helmet business. There is a lot a bunk and miss information out there in the trials world around this subject. The only difference between a USA DOT certified full face helmet and the downhill certified helmet is the venting specs. The usage of a full face helmet in the US nationals is a controversial one. While it is true that a full face helmet made for motocross and carries a DOT sticker on it is way to heavy for trials. That is why some of the US national riders are using downhill bicycle certified full face helmets. No they do NOT explode on impact. Trials riders see slower impacts speeds that motocross riders and therefore need a helmet that is geared towards that slower type of impact. Just because a helmet is full faced does NOT mean it is a "Downhill Certified Helmet". There are many full face bicycle helmets around that would NOT be allowed in a sanctioned downhill bicycle race. Some trials clubs are experimenting with the usage of full faced bicycle helmet ONLY if it has the Downhill Bicycle Certification on it. My Airoh open faced Trials helmet is NOT DOT approved and it is sold for trials, go figure.......... Ask for the claustrophobia concern of a full face helmet. A full face motorcycle helmet designed for motocross is not the same shape as full faced helmet designed for down hill bicycle racers. A motocrosser generally has lots of shoulder padding on and therefore the pads can push the helmet up at the back which will push down at the front especially coming off large landings. A downhill bicycle racer does not usually wear lots of shoulder padding so less chance of the helmet getting struck at the back and being forced down at the front. That is why a good designed down hill helmet is already sloped down at the front as there is little chance of it getting knocked down further by shoulder pads etc. This means better visibility out of a Downhill racing full faced helmet than a motocross full faced helmet. Look at the picture of the full faced SSO helmet you posted above, see how it slopes down at the front??? If your friend Sean is wearing a Six Six One then that is also a downhill bicycle helmet as Six Six One is company that makes protection gear for the radical bicycle guys. I have purchased a Leatt Carbon Kevlar full faced downhill sanctioned helmet. It is lighter that my Airoh trials helmet. Check the facts on what I am saying I know we have................ The Leatt DBX Carbon helmet is the latest, lightest innovation that has been added to the Leatt bicycle helmet range. It is extremely lightweight and features innovative 360 ̊ Turbine Technology integrated with Armourgel® cushioning material. Ten turbines made of 3D molded Armourgel® are set inside the helmet. Flexible in their natural state, these turbines stiffen upon impact and deform to absorb both vertical and rotational impact forces. This means that the faster or harder you fall, the better it works. This technology reduces up to 30% of head impact at concussion level as well as up to 40% of rotational acceleration to the head and brain. The Carbon helmet also has a smaller shell, which means that up to 20% less rotational forces are transmitted to your neck, head and brain. Engineered with comfort in mind, the 6.0 is extremely ventilated, has low friction cheek pads, is neck brace compatible and has a Fidlock® magnetic buckle that offers easy custom fitting. Another key feature is the breakaway visor that provides you with world-class protection.

Here we go again. No idea of where you live, altitude, temperatures etc. Not your fault that you don't supply this basic info it is the normal for the site....

The "Does a 125cc trials bike have enough power" is all relative to where you live. At sea level or slightly above it is more than adequate. Go up to about 3000 feet and it struggles. Keep going up to 5000 to 8000 ft above sea level and it is useless. Caveat: When asking the above question be careful on the answer as they may live at or near sea level and the person posing the question may live at a much higher elevation.

Does it "Pink" when you roll on the throttle or off the throttle?

BBK It is on the Honda USA Powersports site. Order books are open.

Honda Announces 2017 Montesa Trial Models Cota 300RR and Cota 4RT260 benefit from Honda's competition achievements PRINT ADD SHARE DOWNLOAD Sep 16, 2016 - TORRANCE, Calif. Capping off a season that saw Repsol Honda trials rider Toni Bou land an incredible 20th World Championship (10 outdoor, 10 indoor), while U.S. Montesa Honda rider Marc Freixa landed the AMA/NATC MotoTrials National Championship, American Honda announces its lineup of 2017 Montesa trials motorcycles. Between the exclusive Cota 300RR and the capable Cota 4RT260, Honda Montesa has something for trials riders of every level. "No one is more passionate about their pastime than trials enthusiasts, so it's gratifying to continue supporting these customers in the U.S., particularly given the success Honda has enjoyed this year in international and domestic competition," said Lee Edmunds, Manager of Motorcycle Marketing Communications at American Honda. Montesa Cota 300RR Introduced last year, the Cota 300RR was made for competition (the "RR" suffix stands for "Race Ready") and is the production model most similar to the prototypes used by factory Honda Montesa riders. For 2017, the 300RR is even better, with new ECU mapping that improves engine response in the low and middle rpm ranges that are especially important for trials motorcycles. Another aspect that contributes to engine response is the new three-ring piston (up from two), which helps prevent leakage and improves durability. The piston is now lighter and has a flatter top, reducing vibration and making combustion more efficient at low rpm. The cylinder has also been redesigned to match the new piston, further improving engine efficiency. The chassis has also been updated, with new, suppler settings for the Tech fork, similar to those used by factory riders. Finally, the muffler is more robust with reinforced mounts, and the rear-brake pedal has been shortened to avoid impacts and allow the rider more freedom of movement. Color: Red Price: $9,999 Availability: December 2016 Montesa Cota 4RT260 A cutting-edge machine that is attainable both for trials enthusiasts and those looking for a cross-training tool, the 4RT260 was first introduced to the U.S. market in 2015. Now offered in a striking new White/Blue/Red livery, the 2017 version also has the longer kick-start lever from the 300RR, making starting easier. The aesthetic changes can also be noticed on the fork, now included with a chromed tube and black leg. The 4RT260 retains the reliable 260cc four-stroke engine that was improved last year, boasting a strong power curve, with an emphasis on bottom end and midrange. A clever crankcase decompressing system reduces the engine-braking effect at closed throttle, improving handling and making the bike feel lighter. Also standard is top-level suspension, with a fork from Tech and a shock from R16V—both well known in the trials world. Colors: White/Blue/Red Price: $7,899 Availability: November 2016 Click here for more information on the Honda Montesa Cota models.

Welcome aboard. You need to help us first. We have no idea what planet, continent, country, city you live in. Lots of replies will come pouring in once we have your approximate location. BillyT

Aller équipe Canada botter des culs........

Bob wrote and I quote "As for the FIM affiliation, that really has no meaning to Canadian riders, since very few Canadians have any interest in competing internationally. This year, there have been zero Canadians entered in to the North American Trials Championships." The reality is three Canadian riders competed in the recent US Nationals. And did rather well. I will need to let them know that they where not there at all according to Bob.

Here we go................. Trials Central is an abstract forum? I beg to differ it is arguable the most respected and viewed trials forum out there in the English speaking world. "We don't have a President only a Director". What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Canada? Does that mean due to not having a president of the WTC the WTC can't show us their plans for the growth of trials in Canada? Then go hire a president! "Everybody works to help the family aspect of trials at the lowest cost possible - Nobody gets paid." As does all the non WTC CMA trials members. ​Who keeps all the sign up funds at these trials? If the WTC charge the same amount as a regular trial then there must be a little bit of profit. If the Trial Central is site "abstract" then why does the WTC use it to advertise the WTC events. Fits your purpose when it suites the WTC does it not. On keeping the silly confusing name of World Trials Canada. I would agree wholeheartedly, the WTC name is a source of amusement even Michael had mentioned the name maybe up for change. What will happen when the CMA organize a world round in Canada how will the advertisement go for that I wonder. I can see the heading now "The CMA has organized a World Trials round in Canada, caveat not to be confused with World Trials Canada". Hate replies.... I think the discussions on this forum have been respectful tough questions that Michael and Bob have tried to answer respectfully and honestly in their limited WTC capacity. Burying your head in the sand will do nothing for the growth of the Canadian Trials scene. Call them hate mails if you like WE call them "calling out the those who are driving a private agenda based upon a politic conflict of interest". Do you really want to tarnish your trials legacy by acting like Harold Steptoe? You should be building bridges not tearing them apart to suite your outdated private agenda. I may not live in Canada currently however I still keep in touch with trials riders in Canada and regardless of allegiance to WTC, CMA, or neither you and your myopic self serving politics are the common denominator in how things are disintegrated in Canada. Do us all a favour......... Shut us up by acting like a Director and share with us the WTC plan for growing the sport in Canada, North America and globally. You have a global forum on this prestigious site to do so. The ball is in your court...

Borus. I checked out the Canadian Ring Association. Fascinating, are these also RCMP service dogs getting trained? When you say you are not a supporter of the CMA or WTC, CMM is that due to the people or what the associations stand for? Please help me understand what your ideal Canadian Trials association would look like? Take the people out of it and focus on the ethics, content, mission and values of a Trials association that represents Canada. These qualities you mention, what are they?

Great work out there in NS putting on a trial. Sorry to hear about the accident. "I think it is healthy to discuss the issues with the sport and feel it will eventually lead to seeing a middle ground." 100% agree with you. To many people are afraid of the tough questions. I PM you a few days ago to try an set up a call. You can ask me any questions you find related to finding a common ground. I am currently a member of the AMA as I live currently in AZ. When I go back to AB I try to ride a trial and buy a CMA membership. I normally retain a CMA card I did not make it back this year, so no I do not have current CMA card. A new CMA card for 2017 will be a must. ( PS: I lived in Amherst when I first landed in NS). Awesome little place. Take your time, to answer and best wishes to your injured rider. Respectfully BillyT

Did some work on her today. Nice guts...........

Boy was I wrong........ You are both politicians. You avoid and skip around direct questions. Yes I posted hard questions. I would ask the questions to anybody that wants my vote (CMA) included, as we all should. Any officer of the CMA, WTC, etc should have no romantic illusions about the role. It is job period and any candidate should have a past pedigree and vision as they report into a boss of said organization. So Bob, you find my questions absurd and looking to point out the faults. The growth of trials in Canada is my objective even from a far. The direction, objectives of any person/organization that takes on this task must have many different skill sets, a history of riding trials, knows the people, has national and international experience, is a bridge builder, has a vision and shares that vision. I doubt you and Michael could argue with these basic fundamentals. Bob you wrote "For myself, I have a lot of experience with introducing new sports to both Canada and the USA from Europe, development and leading of National organizations, international relationships both sporting and business. I really don't think I need to justify myself to you on the people I support." ​I was not asking for justification of your past but rather why you committed on public forum that you support Michael for president, even though Michael states he is not running for a WTC officer post. I wanted to know what it was about his thoughts on growing the Canadian trials scene/ platform you liked and how it aligns with your vision for trials in Canada, why is that such a hard question. I am curious what new sports (plural) did you introduce to Canada. You would not vote in a Canadian election without first knowing what the candidate stood for would you? Michael. Once again your honesty is appreciated. You stated that you do not want to run for office but rather support trials at the grass root level. I honestly believe you could do a good job of that. Being a sponsored rider is a hard job. Bob must have saw something he wanted to sponsor? I hoped I would get to hear the WTC vision or the WEC mother ship vision of how they could grow trials on the local, national, international level. Either of you may not have created the current WTC policies or vision for the future however you obviously support it. Instead I see two highly passionate supporters of the WTC skipping and dancing around succinct questions of vision, and action plans, the same set of question I would pose to the CMA. My conclusion, you can't or won't answer my questions, can I speak to the boss? I know they are watching.............

What a great thought Borus, yes time for new blood in the WTC. As with all well ran campaigns each candidate has a platform that they put forth. Boris what is it about Michaels platform that you like and why you have already gave him your vote? Being an astute business man and a Sherco importer you must have liked what Micheal had to say and committing your vote to him in a public forum a bold statement. Please enlighten us we need to know what you know......... What does Michael propose to change? What are Michaels plans to promote the sport national and globally. We all agree the sport is too small in Canada to have divided clubs and politics and must change moving forward. What skills sets has Michael demonstrated to date in bridging these gaps. What is it about Michaels vast past trials experience and contacts in the trials world local, national, global that you like? Surely a person does not vote a person in to power based solely upon JUST liking a candidate passion and the fact that he bought a bike from you, etc there must be some pedigree, provenance in a candidate .......... Maybe Michael can answer this for Bob (Borus)? While we wait for Bobs reply....... Lets give Michael a fair open job interview here. Michael please tell us why your background makes you a suitable candidate for this job? How long have you been riding trials What experience do you have on national level What experience do you have on a global level What prior relationship do you have within organizations such the FIM, CMA, AMA. Have you demonstrated change management, bridging political gaps before, if so where Do you have credibility in the trials community built over years of involvement in the sport Michael with respect to your platform the stage is yours, please tell us: What you would change How you would change it How would you grow the sports local, national, globaly Give us a 3, 5, 10 year plan? What connections would you make with the FIM, AMA, CMA What would be your campaign slogan Do you see your lack of trials provenance, pedigree as an assist or hinderance There must be an overall direction that the WTC and the WEC mother ship wants to head. I would like to assume that no candidate would be accepted unless that respective candidate vision, mission, agenda aligns with the master plan. Who has the "master plan' Is it a secret Can it be shared The stage is yours............

Yes indeed fresh blood is great. Fresh blood without respect to the old stale blood is bad. Check out who is all at the party before you get in bed with anybody LOL I PM you........

Michael your honesty is VERY appreciated. And the succinct answers are all I wanted. My curiosity as to what is going on up there is genuine. I did not mean to hide my relationship or ties to Canada. How could I as Dave R has known me for almost 20 years. I have been close friends with Steve for almost 34 years. My skill level in trials is all downhill currently as I am 60 years old now. Been riding for about thirty five years. Been a minder/mechanic at three world rounds and fell off more times than I can remember. What about your experience in the trials community, how long have you been riding? As for the CMA vs WTC it is a mess........ They both have their issues and challenges. The thing that makes the more experienced of us upset is when people who are relatively new to the sport go up against those of us who have paid their dues in blood sweat and fives through the years. Steve wears his heart on his sleeve and says what is on his mind. We can find fault with that, however you will not find a person who is more knowledgeable or passionate about the sport in Canada and for that we should be grateful. It will take passion and a collective meeting of the minds to promote and grow trials in Canada. The sooner politics are put aside the better. Some advise from an really old trials fart like me. Use your passion for change in Canada wisely and couple it with Steve's knowledge and passion for the sport. Going up against the old guard will never be good. Be careful who you align with and don't be blinded by the bling. It will take people with passion to change things. Find common ground with Steve and build upon that. Respectfully BillyT

"Hi BillyT, I'm a bit confused with your post... you ask me to answer 7 questions with one answer and then say anything you or I might say is pointless... I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true." ​No need to be confused. I asked you to answer either yes or no to the facts that are written on the WTC, MCC WEC websites? Simple. As usual you have avoided a direct question and beat around the bush. As for " I would say the fact is just because somebody posts something on the internet doesn't make it true." This is not a "somebody it is an organization making these statements . This dumbfound me, are you saying I should not trust anything that the WTC, WEC, MCC write on their sites? ​This is not a debate, just me asking you for simple yes or no to the 7 written facts. When I stated that we need the official spokesperson from CMA, WTC,WEC, CMM I was referring to what the their intent, agenda, objectives where with trials as we move forward. Clear?

Well said Derek.

Michael At least we agree on one thing it is a mess.......... Here is my conclusion: Until the officials of the CMA and the WEC/WTC sign in and join in on this provocative subject it is our interpretation, conjecture, assumptions, hypothesis. However in saying that there is no interpretation, conjecture, assumptions, hypothesis around clearly written facts on public forums by the WTC, CMM, WEC. Such as: 1. The MCC web site stating "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada.". Yet the CMA was founded in 1946 for promoting motorcycling in Canada. ​2. The WEC charges a yearly membership dues and a fee to ride a WEC event and is the legal owner of the WTC entity. 3. The WEC has stated on a public forum that the WTC events are currently subsidized and that will at some point in time change. 4. The WTC has adopted the CMA trials rules as used by the FIM. 5. The controversial name of World Trials Canada came from World Enduro Canada association which is also confusing the World enduro riders. Kind of like the US World series that is made up of 99% US teams with one sole Canadian team. So how can it be the "world series"baseball league. ​6. Many of the WTC events offer insurance policies thru one of the event sponsors who is an insurance provider. 7. The chances of the WTC putting on a world round in Canada are slim to none and will still rely on the CMA to do so. With this being said how can they WTC fulfill their mission statement of "promoting Canadian trials on the global stage"? Lets see if you can answer one simple question with a succinct answer: Are the above 7 points fact or fiction. ​In order to get some truths to all theses facts I would suggest that an official member of the WTC defend or dispute the facts, not you or me! ​If not, then these posting controversial thoughts are as useful as a "Which bike is best" post. As we all know is very subjective and provocative, going around in circles and getting us no where. This type of post is at the point where fact is no longer taking into consideration but rather winning political points of contention becomes the agenda. The "Which bike is best" question after a while sees readers logging on to get a chuckle out of the remaining stalwarts defending their brand of bike as does this post. You stated " Seems that some of the websites you visited have not been updated in a while" quite the contrary. The WEC, WTC and MCC are all up to date with current results posted. Even if they where not up up to-date past statement are still past statements of intent. Long live trials in Canada regardless of affiliation. Respectfully BillyT

Hi Michael. You had sparked my interest and curiousity around the WTC & the CMA. I took it upon my self to get educated as much as I could. After much Googiling I am even more confused. Here is where my mind gets messed up. Trials event fees: While the CMA charges a yearly CMA dues and the WTC currently does not, by WEC own verbiage on their web site they state "the WTC trials events are subsidized by the WEC and that they will charge a yearly fee in the near future". Meaning WTC trials events will have a yearly due to pay. The WEC currently charges riders to ride WEC events and a yearly due. As it will in the near future for WTC events. The WEC site also states that "The Motorcyclists Confederation of Canada (MCC) is the national not-for-profit advocacy organization for the promotion of motorcycling interests." The CMA is also a non profit organization. "History of the MCC On the MCC web site "As recently as 2004, there was no national organization fostering the growth and development of motorcycling in Canada." The above statement by the MCC is not correct s the CMA was founded in 1946 for the same purpose. ABOUT THE CMA The Canadian Motorcycle Association was founded in 1946 and incorporated federally as a Not for Profit in 1957. We are Canada's National Association for motorcyclists, and are proud to be celebrating 70 years of service to our community. Since 1950 we have been affiliated with the World Governing Body, Federation Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) and are responsible to oversee their interests in motorcycling and snowmobiling throughout Canada. The Association, together with its sister federation, American Motorcyclist Association, is a founding member (1998) of FIM North America, a continental body of the FIM. As for the strange name of World Trials Canada it becomes more apparent when you read this news statement released by the WEC (World Enduro Canada). Feb 12, 2011: WEC Announces the formation of World Trials CanadaAs of February 12th, 2011, the trials division of the WEC will now be recognized as WTC--World Trials Canada. The name change is to reflect the trials section of the WEC as its own entity. The name will represent the global position of trials in Canada while continuing to push the limits of our sport in this country. Now in its third full year of successfully operating the only truly national championship for many years in Canada, the WTC will continue to be the leader in elevating not only the public image of trials in Canada, but the quality of the events. The WTC understands that this is the beginning of many exciting announcements regarding the future of trials in Canada, and it remains dedicated to making all aspects of the sport grow. The WTC is formalizing the announcement of the WTC trials council, which has, in fac, been in place for over three years. The council will be in charge of scheduling and governing the national trials body with the help of the following members: Dave Rhodes (BC), Harold Pospisil (Alberta), Sean Weisner (Ontario), Martin Roy and Stephen Fotheringham (Quebec). The name change is to reflect the trials section of the WEC as its own entity. This is financial agenda. If the WTC & WEC is trying to promote Canadian trials within the larger trial global context how can they do so when they have no official relationship outside of Canada or the FIM? How many Canadian world round has the WTC put on to date compared to how many the CMA has put on? The CMA sponsors the Canadian TDN team and also selects the TDN team. This is all very confusing and makes me wonder what is really going on up there as I a duck by any other name is still a duck. I think this is more of a political game by two waring factions that do not like each other. As for WTC trial events rules I quote from the WTC web site: "Scoring. The scoring method outlined below is the standard method of scoring used in WTC sanctioned trials and is generally consistent with the scoring rules used in the National Championship events of FIM affiliated countries and in the FIM Trials World Championship events. " If the CMA events go by FIM rules and affiliate countries then the WTC is going by CMA rules at the events. I see no benefit in switching my old establish credit card to a newer credit card that promises lower introductory interest rates to get me on board and then switches me over to a higher interest rate. At least I can travel internationally with my CMA membership and it is honored in the USA by the AMA. Help me understand this Michael. Respectfully

Thank you Michael. All good stuff indeed. I will certainly educate myself on all things WTC. When can we expect to see a World round back in Canada? What does WTC have up their sleeve to bring the big boys over to Canada. In the past when there was a USA world round Canada tried to put one on also to take advantage of the world riders being over in the this continent. I believe they (NATC) are trying to put a world round on in northern AZ in 2017 care to share on how the WTC plans to capitalize/align on the US world round ??? Will WTC be sending a Trials De Nation team over to compete? Sorry for all the questions, there is so much going on up there and I feel homesick.....

Hi Michael Thanks for the reply post. You wrote: "It has much less to do with riding events and much more to do with putting on events" can you please elaborate on what you meant by that? "As I see it the WTC believes in minimal cost events to get more riders out." so the CMA sanctioned event is a money thing? Are the section rules the same?