Oldarmybiker

Hi Mont339. It looks like your casing and engine are fine. After they got my engine back they will have realised that there was clearly potential for disaster! Honda have probably sent the letters out for a whole batch of bikes that potentially have the same issue as mine in order to cover their backsides regarding liability until they can ascertain which ones are actually faulty. I strongly suspect that the next letter everyone receives will be to get the bikes into dealers to examine the casing and then take the appropriate action.

Hi Mont339. That's very interesting! Are you UK based or US? In reply to your question I suppose it depends on what Honda identify as the problem they are addressing? If it is for the same problem that I had, then you should be looking at a new engine but will probably have to fight for it. If your engine has done 30 hours I am assuming it will have had at least one service where the problem should have been identified. Did you do it yourself or have a dealer do it? The crux of the issue is whether there is a total blockage that stops oil from exiting the filter housing and consequently starving those components further down the lubrication system that depend on it. Mine was total but other defective cases might not be as catastrophically compromised from defective machining. Let me know and I will offer what advice I can. Honda are clearly on the back foot here and I wonder if the timing of your recall (which I never had) is as a result of looking at my defective motor and having to recognise that they have a potentially big problem? I wonder how many others have received one?

Sorry for the delay in closing this one down but the resolution took some time and I have also got a motorhome recently and much of my focus has been on getting out in it. I have a brand new engine installed in the bike! I got the work undertaken by ThunderRoad in Gloucester who are Honda and deal with their off road stuff. Honda were great once they conceded the issue and a new engine was shipped over from Spain in less time than anticipated. Colin at ThunderRoad was helpful and engaged with getting it installed within a few weeks. As warranty work for dealers is a real pain as they do not get reimbursed anywhere near enough for the actual amount of time it takes and the hassles that comes with it, they were very accommodating considering that Honda deem the engine replacement to be 3.5 hours, or something like that. Which is why, of course, Marsh Powersports of Merthyr Tydfil were not interested in any of it! I will be posting as much poor feedback and damning reviews as I can on them in due course but in the meantime, on this forum, I recommend anybody to steer clear of them. Recapping here to save you going back in the thread: Their workshop is either woefully lazy, totally incompetent or happily prepared to lie about what they have done (or didn't do). They were given a clear picture of the issue by me when they first took it in but declared the bike to be fine. I have a copy of the job card - Quote "we have oppend the case and changed the oil filter and test rode the biked .we have reoppened the case and the oil housing is full of oil and the oil filter is covered in oil . the oil screen is clear with out any fragments or dibrea oil is of a good clear quality ......." (sic). Class! This is clearly blatant lying as it ultimately transpired that there was no oil able to pass through the filter due to the casing machining error. As a result I was sent on my way to do over 300 miles off road in foreign parts on a bike that clearly could have suffered a catastrophic failure! When the bike went back in after this I still had to spoon feed them regarding the issues with the casing, even taking it off for them and and pointing it all out! They still played dumb until I made a contiguous video of the bike running and then opened up to reveal a dry filter and sent it to the owner. Having got his attention, they duly came up with the offer of a replacement casing under warranty but, when challenged about any consequent damage to the rest of the engine as a result of the defect, then came the offer of a new bike for an agreed sum. Obviously they were not interested in taking the fight to Honda and also quite content to replace the casing on my bike and punt it out to some unsuspecting soul with ONLY a replacement casing. When I went up to pick up a new bike they renéged on the deal and wanted over another £100+ with some waffle about Honda not coming up with money they were expecting. Considering their failures and dishonesty up to this point which does not show them in any kind of good light, I was surprised and told them I would deal with Honda myself. It wasn't that difficult really but requires confidence and persistence. What really is required now is a class action against Honda for all defective bikes that only had the casing replaced. I suspect , in part, this is what they were afraid of when they could see I was capable and determined - and right of course! I am ashamed to say that I will not be pursuing this course but if any reader has or knows of someone who has had a similar experience and accepted a new casing only, the precedence has been set! Well, that about puts it to bed. I will have a break before getting into Trustpilot reviews.

Sorry I have been off line for a bit but I have had a result! Backstory since last post - dealer was pretty useless but after a couple of visits to spoon feed them (including my earlier video) they were able to acknowledge the issue. They submitted a warranty claim for a new casing which was accepted but failed to make any case for potential engine damage as this is clearly unpaid hassle for them! I was not happy and they then offered me a new replacement bike for £1000 to change. Considering Honda had just reduced the list price of a new bike by £1800 this seemed unreasonable but we negotiated down to £500, which I accepted. However, they then reneged on the deal and wanted another £107 for registration or something as Honda had failed to provide some credit they were expecting. If we had done the deal it It is clear to me that they were going to put the new casing on my old bike and punt it out second hand, which, as a man of some principle, I consider to be pretty scurrilous! So I told them I would take this up directly with Honda. After getting through two layers of Honda's customer service smokescreens (abroad, naturally, so no-one with English as a first language or any technical knowledge) there were mix ups and confusions where they stated it was a carburettor issue / that I had received a goodwill payment and the bike registration was a mixture of my postcode and the actual reg number! After making the clear point that, as Honda has already accepted the casing defect they must therefore also accept that there are going to be adverse consequences from this, I found myself talking to a helpful and knowledgeable technical assessor at Honda UK. Hoorray! The assessor acknowledged my arguments and agreed that there were likely to be concerns over wear and or damage to the engine and that he would make the case to management about a solution. I said that I would accept nothing less than a new and complete engine, not a short engine. Interestingly, it would appear that a boatload of 4RTs had been returned to Spain to be checked for this defect and it would seem that my motor was one that slipped through the net. Lucky me! During a second call from him it would seem that Montesa resisted a little bit saying that they oil system is split and the engine would have had circulating oil. I pointed out that none of this would have been filtered and that components fed from the oil filter onwards (i.e the left side of the motor) would have been starved. This was accepted and Montesa have agreed to provide a complete factory built engine as a replacement. As I was not happy with the competence of supplying dealer doing the work I have found another but will have to get the bike to them. More to follow soon, I hope.

Right! The bike is now at the dealer and they have raised the issue with Honda. We'll see how that goes in due course. Before it went in I showed them the cover and they agreed to have another look. I then did a couple of oil changes, the first with the PRV removed so that oil could return directly into the crankcase. After running the bike briefly and then opening it up the filter was soaking and the housing full to the brim. So I know the oil pump is working. The second with a new filter and the PRV back in. I took a contiguous video of the following inspection which was, as before, a bone dry filter and housing. Clearly there is a blockage after the PRV, stopping any oil feed to the bottom and top ends. A shortened clip is attached here. No it's not as it seems that mp4 is not acceptable, Sorry. Is it possible to get videos on here?

Evenin' all. A picture paints a thousand words! I have annotated this one for those who are maybe not familiar with the engine. As this is a significant and unarguable defect that has totally compromised the lubrication system, I am looking to a new engine.

Thanks for that jrshunt, especially for the potential offer. I worked in the business for a few years in between two army careers and am under no illusions this is going to require diplomacy, determination and effort. Fortunately I am retired and have the inclination so will be getting lots of ducks in a row before getting the ball rolling. I will keep this post updated as to the progress, trials an tribulations of my journey.

Hello lemur and everybody. Sorry, I was talking cobblers about the main bearings! Just looked at my parts diagrams and all bearings in the motor look to be rollers as you have pointed out. Not sure what I was looking at or thinking to come up with shells. That would explain why the bottom end at least has soldiered on! lemur, if you need the complete parts diagrams I can happily send you the .pdf

I have got to the bottom of the problem! There is a manufacturing defect in the cover where an oil way has not been fully drilled through between the PRV (seen with circlip in previous photos) and the oil ways which go to the crankshaft and back into the crankcase. The latter is the untapped middle hole that can be seen in the top right photo and, judging from its location at the front end of the barrel, probably provides the oil supply to the top end. Effectively, the oil filter exit has been blanked off and not allowing any oil through. I cannot see the lubrication system being a 'bypass' one if oil is to be fed, at pressure, to the crankshaft and top end. Therefore, there has been no direct oil feed to the crank and top end from the first turn of the motor! Yuuurk! The main bearings are shells so will suffer badly from a lack of any oil supply. Not sure why the engine has not protested yet? Any ideas?

Jrsunt, thanks for that advice. Not naming anyone at this time. lemur, oil strainer always been clean each oil change I have done and the dealer said it was clear also.

Hi jrsunt. The first service I did the filter was bright yellow and dry and the oil was discoloured. The dealer put in a new filter (but a hi-flo by the look of it) and said they changed the oil too before running and opening it up again to check. After Devon the oil was pretty dark but the filter (brown paper with wire mesh) was dry and leaving it on a piece of tissue for 20 minutes left no sign. There was a dribble of oil in the bottom of the filter chamber which was clearly cleaner than what came out of the sump. See my last post to Konrad regarding my thoughts on the crank oil feed. Is that right, do you know?

Konrad, That's what I have always understood, which is why I am confused by the oil coming from the main crankcase orifice into the filter chamber and then out into the crankcase casing via the filter retaining cover. If it is a full flow system then that filtered oil should be making it's way to the big end et al somehow. Now it occurs to me that an oilway in the cover takes the oil to the roller bearing and oil seal in the crankcase cover allowing pressurised oil through the crankshaft to the mains and big end? That would be very worrying as it would mean no oil making it's way to where it is needed etc.. Though if that were the case they would have gone by now! I am going to have a better nose around tomorrow. Cheers

Hi jrsunt, Your post implies that the flywheel axle has an oil way leading to or from the crank big end housing? Do you know which way the oil flows? Also, I would think that the oil filter chamber should be full of flowing hot oil during operation and any grease on the spring would be quickly dissolved into the main oil volume?

Hello Konrad, thanks for responding. First service is due at 500 Km (312 m) and subsequently at 1000 Km intervals, so I was ahead of it a little at 259 m. The filter would be difficult, if not impossible, to fit the wrong way round, so no issue there. I covered around 400 miles after the dealer said no problems. I would expect the filter element to be swollen and discoloured after this, which it was not. Also, the outflow/exit from the filter chamber is an orifice in the centre of the sealed filter retaining plate, so it cannot drain down over time. Therefore, on removal the chamber should be a bit less than half full, yet there was just a dribble lying in the bottom. Probably what the dealer saw and took to be adequate, if indeed they ever did look? Clearly oil is circulating around the motor, otherwise it would have gone terminal by now, as you rightly point out. The more I think about it, I am pretty sure it is a bypass system as any exit that is, or should be, in the crankcase cover can only deposit oil back into the main chamber and sump. I don't know what the design proportion of oil to go through the filter is (10% ?), but there has been no filtering at all up to this point in time. Probably not the end of the world, as you say. However, I think my next move is to remove and check the PRV which should be controlling the oil flow rate. Maybe it is defective?

Hello. I bought a brand new 4 Ride in April last. Ran it in for 260 miles before servicing it prior to a weekend trail riding in N Wales. The oil filter was bone dry with a dribble of oil sitting inside the filter housing. Aaaargh! Fortunately I still had my old CRF for the weekend and the 4 Ride went into the dealer a couple of days later. They said that there was no issue that they could find as they replaced the filter, ran the bike and opened it up again to find oil as they would expect to see. Vaguely reassured, I took it to France for three days trail riding and then to Devon in December, nearly 400 miles. Took it apart for an oil service and found a dry filter again! Even the grease on the filter to hold the spring in place was still there. Having broken my front mudguard in France I was sourcing a replacement and found myself talking to Gordon at Mickey Oates in Glasgow. He was very helpful and forthcoming so I told him about the oil issue. He told me that they had seen this problem before due to a blocked/ incomplete oil way in the crankcase cover and that Honda had replaced them. He kindly offered to send me photos he had to help identify the correct holes to pour oil into and check that it flowed through. Well, Xmas was upon us and I am only now getting around to checking it out. Unfortunately I did not get the photos because Mickey Oates closed it's doors for good not long after I called (sorry guys) and are now not available to help. Looking at the exploded parts diagrams and the actual crankcase I am assuming the duff oil way would be in the area of the pressure relief valve, which looks to be after the oil filter in terms of the flow direction. There is no obvious exit point for oil anywhere near the PRV so maybe this is the problem? I cannot ascertain if the oil system is a 'total flow' or 'bypass' one. Therefore, can anybody help with the following before I go out to bat against Honda: 1. Anyone else experienced this? 2. Is the system total flow or bypass? 3. Even if the system is a bypass one, no filtration will have been taking place. How concerned do I need to be about damage/wear up to this point? Any feedback appreciated