old trials fanatic

"The situation though is very diffent down south where there are far more genuine, original bikes." I think this sentence explains a lot. He is writing from his perspective as a southerner and knows little of the real sport of trials on real trials terrain. TTspud may or may not have a arguable point based on a southerners perspective i neither know nor care. What i do know is i will be astounded if any of the real Classic Trials Clubs who organise month in month out real trials for real trials riders over authentic trials terrain will ever even consider adopting his "rules" let alone do so. Even on the easy Clubmen routes truly Original bikes, as against the effectively highly modified ones that his rules would encourage, would struggle to get round simply being unable to complete the course in one piece. Our club rules allow someone to build a budget P65 machine as long as the motor and frame come from a period machine or if replica then it is recognisable as the machine it purports to be. Want to use Ossa, Bultaco, Montesa hubs wheels forks then thats ok by us the same as using Ossa petrol tanks etc. Whats the big deal about that ? We are trying to encourage participation not deter riders from riding as are most Classic Clubs wherever they are. Excluding riders or worse will not encourage them to keep YOUR club afloat. Thats the real world i live in. We like most Clubs can not afford to exclude or discourage any riders and if enough of these riders of "Original" machines want to let me know they will turn up i will promise to make the Clubman route even easier. With five routes riders can always choose to move up a route or down as health and age takes it's toll. I feel that riders ride the bikes they have some kind of affinity to for whatever reason and as such we try, as do most other Classic Clubs, to provide them with somewhere that they can ride their bikes alongside like minded people. TT spud has his affinity to the 4 stroke P65 "Original" machines with modifications that he agrees with. Woody and Totalshell along with many others make very valid points that the current situation isnt broken as we experience it so why break it with these proposed rules and i agree. As i said earlier TT spud should if he doesnt already run a club and set out courses for these machines and their riders that are currently languishing in a crypt somewhere form one and if there is indeed a need for his kind of event then i am sure he will be inundated with entries and good luck to him and all who sail with him. I dont believe there is this burning desire for an event run under these rules so please prove me wrong and then all clubs will have to consider adopting them but i seriously doubt it will happen.

As always well put Woody

Oh boy Dabster has Dad of 2 now i get you. You had a right pop at me personally and the Club i run on my own may i add so i am going to make a few points and i dont really give a damn TTspud what you think but making them just for the record. FYI i entered my first trial in 1967 and have ridden most weekends ever since so i ACTUALLY have experience of riding and before that observing at that time till the present day. What were YOU doing then ? I run Peak Classic Trials Club single handed and not only lay out the course i liaise with landowners and the governing body, do the results, sort the entries, maintain the website including write ups for T&MX News when they bother to publish them and even sort the soddin flags out EVERY MONTH thats 12 times a year in all weathers. The other year i shovelled the snow off the access road so that people could even get to the trial. ON MY OWN !!! I have been doing this for the last 5 years. You havent yet named, however you had to name mine, the club YOU run that YOU set out the course for every month that YOU officiate for ! Exactly how many Trials a year do YOU set out single handedly ? How long has YOUR club been running YOUR rules ? Also if you had bothered to do your research properly you might have noticed that we give bonus Championship points to riders of rigids and actually welcome, unlike YOUR assumption that we dont, riders of the bigger 4 strokes but in this area they are very few and far between. We regularly have an AJS both springers and rigids along with Ariels and even a pre World War 2 Japette competing. However YOU and YOUR rules would make them all ride as specials even the rigid framed JAP engined Vellocette c/w girder forks and a rider with one leg who is currently leading the Intermediate Championship standings after Sundays trial. Do you really think the owners of these highly original pieces of the British Motor Cycle "Industry" really want to smash them against rocks every weekend ? I dont know what planet you live on or what you are smoking but round here it aint ever gonna happen. You also had a pop about my attitude to spectators well in the world i have to live in they are irrelevant at best and a bloody nuisance most of the time. Most of the venues around here have very limited access and parking and every space is needed for competitors you know the people who take part in the COMPETITION i.e. the trial. These "spectators" usually just dump their car where they feel like sometimes blocking or severely restricting access for farmers and locals alike and they offer nothing whatsoever to the running of the trial. They more often than not get in the way of riders even sometimes in the sections so yes i dont think they are a consideration and quite often more of a pest. If we are talking about the Scottish 2 day then that is different as the club makes a lot of much needed revenue from programme sales and if not for that the costs would have to be passed onto the riders so in their case they are a necessary evil. As for what i call the Club I will call it what i damn well like and you can rename yours to what you like assuming you actually run one. what was the name of the Club you run by the way ? My opinion of genuine as in unmodified P65 bikes is exactly MY OPINION you have the right to dissagree but i respect your right to have yours so do me the courtesy of responding likewise. I think sorry know they are in desperate need of improvement you disagree lets just agree to disagree on that. My opinion again but if a club wishes to adopt your rules then seriously good luck to them but they need to start their own series Championship whatever. From my reading between the lines you favour more of a pageant and i believe a trial is first and foremost a competitive event. Yours seems to me anyway more like a Concours / rivet counters fest which is fine if that is what people want. Not for me. I dont even understand why people go to Telford and look at competition bikes NOT competing but thats me i would much sooner be riding in an event any day. So you have named and cited my Club so which Club do you run ? which Club is running YOUR rules ? when is your next event that you are laying out the course for ? How many entries have you got pledged ?

From what i remember and a recent test ride there was nothing enjoyable about riding what some including Deryk and TT spud consider "proper bikes" lets face it if they were so good why could people not wait to get rid of them. THEY WERE AWFUL AND THEY STILL ARE ! ok if your penchant is for masochism then fine but dont forget to book the Monday off work to visit the A&E dept. I love my sport and have been riding since 1967 when i first started on a Greeves Scottish and the only reason i wish i still had that bike is so i could sell it for the ridiculous sum that they seem to command from anoraks out there. Plus whats all these references to spectators ? Who cares Trials is not and never should be about spectators. The only spectators we should give a damn about are the ones holding a board who record our score any others unless they want to pay for the privilege are irrelevant. IMHO of course

Angle grinder ? why would you want a lock anyway ? Comes under the heading of removing all superflous lugs and brackets as far as i can see

Have any of you tried these 19" so called trials tyres ? Slicks more like. Read all the above and it's even more confusing to me than the current situation. All very pre65 when it suits but not when it doesnt. Amal Mk 1 ? isnt even P65. Fork internals shock ANY ? i can see the market retooling for 38mm and above modern internals as we speak. Good luck to you reinventing the wheel but dont count me in it sounds a total load of bo****ks to me sorry but it does.

Thanks Deryk thats very good of you. I am happy to supply the results. I just hope someone with a camera reads this

Shame the Scottish 2 day doesnt do likewise IMHO

Peak Classic are holding another round of their 2015 club Championship at Stathams Quarry opposite Matlock Golf Course on the A632 Matlock to Chesterfield road. The nearest post code is DE4 5LZ which is the golf club opposite the entrance to the venue. Classes for British Bikes, Pre 85 Twinshocks, Air Cooled Monos and Over 50's on moderns. Routes for Expert, Classic Expert, Intermediate, Classic Intermediate and Clubman Start time is as usual 11.00 am dont forget to reset your clocks guys ! and entries close 15 mins before the start. For more information results Championship positions etc go to the clubs website at www.peakclassic.co.uk See you there

Doesnt matter what the riders think Charlie. If you enter an event then you sign as part of the entry form to abide by the rules that the organising club have set down. If you dont agree with those rules dont whinge about it afterwards DONT RIDE THERE ride somewhere else preferably with a club whose rules you do agree with. Jon Bliss knew he was taking the p*** when he built the bike. He deliberately went out to create something that looks even on a dark night like NOTHING ever sold as a Trials or Road bike prior to modern times so he knew damned well what he was doing. He wanted to stir things up which he has succeeded in doing. I dont get it. I will say it again if it is all about having fun on a supposedly cheap bike which many have pointed out is no cheaper than the real thing then why all the whining about riding on a non award basis ? You still get to build it you still get to ride it you just get shown on the results as ineligible machine but you knew that when you entered if you had bothered to talk to the organisers before hand so whats the problem? if it's all about having fun and just riding your bike? surely you have but on a non award basis. the only other logical conclusion is that winning is more important than having fun on your bike therefore the bike MUST have been created to give the rider that can exploit it an advantage. QED I have shown a bike that could and has been created from not dissimilar components and i am sure would be acceptable to most clubs to ride as a twinshock but Jon wouldnt build a bike like this would he as it wouldnt give him that elusive advantage would it ? This is just ridiculous the pit bike mob cant see the difference between Jon's aberration and a current evo Bantam, Cub, Whatever and the others can. Stalemate but it still doesnt matter because it's not about what the riders think is it it's about what the organisers think at the end of the day so if it bothers you that much do what you have previously offered to do run a series to whatever rules you decide then riders can choose to ride your event under those rules or not. Seriously i wish you success. Lead by example show the ACU and all the other clubs in the UK how it should be done.

We allow riders on modern bikes to ride on a non award basis at our trials just for fun. Why is Jons converted Raleigh Chopper any different ?

And why would a trial with no entries be a good thing ?

It's not my bike it belongs to one of our members Jim Wicksteed. I was just trying to illustrate that you dont have to build them all minimalist and obviously modern. there is another way that is more in the spirit but i dont think thats what the builders of these bikes really want no matter ho much they keep saying it's only about using those Gas Gas forks that just happen to be lying in the corner of the garage along with the tubless rims etc etc. We all know why Jons bike "evolved" to be the way it is and thats about building the most competitive bike possible and to hell with the spirit of fair competition. There is another way to build a cheap pit bike conversion but this Ken Ives replica is the only one that i have seen that i feel is not trying to gain an unfair advantage unlike the others. But thats just IMHO

Thanks mate

Do have a photo of a bike that rides at our events thats based on a similar motor that i think most clubs would have no problem with but it wont allow me to post on here

Very Pre 65 including the rims. To me it's very much a special and ok to be ridden on a non award basis or why not just have a specials class and if so many are up for building one and riding them they can ride in that. Are we really saying that it's fair to put that against an Ariel or even a Montesa 247 etc ? Looks like a LOT of effort has gone into building a minimalist bike thats as light and hoppable as possible to gain an advantage IMHO

Why would you want to use a spacer in the first place? All using a spacer does is lift all the ports and decrease crankcase compression slightly. It's a 2 stroke not a 4 stroke if you havent noticed yes altering the port timing will have a marked difference on the torque and power of an engine but why you would think a spacer under the barrel would be a panacea is beyond me

Length of headstock and bearing availability too. Remember the TY250 legs are smaller diameter between the yokes so the yokes must be the same distance apart as on a TY250 hence the headstock length is very important.

What Charlie are you saying they have banned Enfield Bullets ? Why ?

Need to dump that pirelli

And ?

Personally i felt the difference more by fitting 360mm rear shocks instead of 340mm ones. I know that is a different thing but just to highlight you will hav to be very sensitive to be able to tell the difference. On a related subject the 1.5 degree yokes did allow me to drop the forks 10 mm through the yokes as with them fitted the mudguard didnt foul the exhaust on full compression

I know this is obvious but you do have a decent chain guard fitted ? Could be picking up off the bottom chain run though if mud is deep. Remember to ride through every puddle you can to dilute it ? Sorry cant think of much else

240 frame, engine, wheels, tank, seat, airbox, exhaust and sidepanels would be a start

True and look at the height on those bars. Tyres look rock hard too compared to now .......... and they were !