A very wise man and TC poster here has a great explanation of why fork level measurement would be better than volume. You can use either or. Experience says 300 however i have used as little as 250 to get my bounce on.
Here are his valuable words "Setting fork oil level by actual measurement rather than volume is more accurate. If your service manual doesn’t give a fork oil level but just the c.c. measurement here’s a way to find out. Flush the forks with kerosene or mineral spirits ( DON’T use gasoline ) and let them drain. Add the c.c. amount called for, compress the fork tube ( spring removed ) and measure from the top of the tube to the oil. A narrow metric ruler works best. You can experiment with more or less of a level to get the action you like. 5 mm changes in oil level will make a change that is noticeable but don’t raise it too high as the forks will hydraulic lock and possibly blow a fork seal. 10 to 15 mm should be a limit in most trials forks. Increases in fork oil level mostly affects the last third of travel."
Thanks for posting. This is interesting. Seems about the same cost wise across the board from what i am seeing. We spend more traveling here but thats to be expected. Its really hard to put a dollar sign on fun so its totally worth it for me. Is especially hard to justify cost to fun level but one good ride makes it all worth it for me. Keep em coming!
Dating a European I can say that its pretty darn cheap to ride trials here in North America. So cheap in fact that she wants to ride our nationals again this year because it gives her the level of competition with an excuse to see someone like me. Having ridden some events over there I thought it would be interesting to see what you all pay for a trials. I suggest starting with a bike cost then working your way down through licencing and event fees.
Bikes first.
1. Bike new $7500-$8500
2. Bike Used less than 5 Years $3000-5000
3. Bike Used newer than Year 2000 $1200-3000
4. Bike between 1982-1999 $500-1500
5. 70's bike $500-2000
6. 60's bike $1500 on up
7. pre 65 if they know what they have Big $$$
Licencing.
1. In USA $49 per year for AMA membership (I just got my life time so $0 for me now!!!) Most require this including nationals.
2. In some states Off Road Vehicle sticker $15-50 (most States are exempt)
3. Road registration (I have never seen a state that requires this to ride a trials) If wanted $40 per year on up depending on state.
4. Insurance (If you want it but not required) $50 per year on up depending on bike and theft rate in your location.
5. Local club membership $10 on up.
Event fees:
1. Nationals $100 per event
2. Local $15-25 per event depending on location.
Transportation:
1. Travel 2 hours one way drive on average to an event and back $50-70 depending on your rig. (most events are 2 hours away if not more)
2. The rig which is probably used to drag your sorry a... to work and back. $1500-50,000. (Also being used for your honey do list on non trials weekends)
So if I tally it up I am on the low Dollar side of this.
09 Raga 300 used: $3500
Parts per year: $500 (conservative)
Fuel to events including nationals: $2000
Vehicle wear and tear: $2000 (most of the work done by me, tires, oil, belts, ect...)
Event entry fees: $700 (including Mrs who wanted to ride nationals this year)
Event accommodations: $1200 or so
Bike registration/licence: Not needed so $0
Insurance: $0 even though i live in Detroit its not really needed. Thing doesn't have a seat so it does not fit the demographic.
So all together i am about $10K per year US in trials just to compete. Practice adds some and I do ride as much as I feel I can. There is fuel to get to practice grounds in there but gas is cheap here. \
I also have a TL125 engine going into a Greeves Wesex frame (finish date TBD), Ty80, Ty175, the Mrs. Sy250, BT5 bicycle, probably something i want tomorrow, Housing a few other trials friends bikes, several scooters, bicycles and cars i am not considering here. None of that i have factored in but all of it feeds into the addiction.
How much do you think your in to your trials addiction?
I am partially posting this because i know i will forget at some point but i know how to search my own posts. The bearing for the rear shock on a 2003 SY250R is a GEH 12C. Dimentions are 12MM inner, 26 outer, 15mm width.
The front wheel bearings on the scorpa and most modern TXT Pro's is 6905 2RS...
If your wondering yes i am rebulding most of the machines in my inventory today.
I have broken the frame on older ones in this area. The issue occurs when the skid pan stresses the frame too much. If you take your skid pan off and it is super compressed then you are playing with borrowed time. Re-arch your skid pan and make sure that its bolts are tight. If your skid pan bolts are loose then the only thing holding the two frame members together are the cases. The skid pan and the cases should work together here.
I thought for a moment the above by bgg was going to be a balanced summary of the necessary information required to analize efi, not an attempt to out bulli**** do2.
Give me carbs, with all their supposed failings, if this is what's required for efi. I've had more than enough of that, and the costs that go with expert analysis, to last a lifetime on various cars.
Yea i kinda went off there.... Sorry Dadof2. You didn't deserve that.
One thing to be clear about is that diagnostic equipment alone won't diagnose a vehicle. All resume's aside diagnosing a driveability concern takes a ton of education. If your lucky you have a trouble code that might have been set with some data around the criteria for that code to be set but even then the developer still has unanswered questions. You still have to understand the inputs and outputs involved to determine if the decision being made is a good one or not. I review tons of CAN logs a day to determine root cause. Then I have to determine if the decision being made is the desirable one based on those inputs.
A tool is only as good as its creator. The reference to scanners and past technology drawing parallels to modern technology is moot. A diagnostic tool should be used as a tool to rate quality not prove it. This is law of averages... The more you need a tool in the world the larger the population is that knows how to use that tool. Trials riders are predominately educated on carburetors. The need for EFI diagnostic knowledge and equipment is really not needed for the mass population these days. EFI is much easier to see inputs and outputs. Its much simpler, it can be logged, it can be quantified, and there is a ton less guess work. Unfortunately for this topic you will find that ball parking a fuel delivery system is effective so proving one ball park figure over another quantifying better or worse is difficult.
So if this discussion is really about which is better then produce your DFEMA (with severity impact), is/is not paredo and fish bone diagram where you have identified all of the critical X's. Then show where you have provided acceptance criteria for the uncertain world we live in. Proof is in the data. You won't get data from a carburetor so good luck. Some of the smartest people in the world have been ball parking carburetor data for years (read some SAE papers on the topic if you don't agree) Also show where you have accounted for a critical X that no two engines operate the same. They have a wide window of operating conditions and critical X's. The topic is silly if you can not provide burden of proof.
I will accept your data in your choice of excel or access format now Dadof2 and help you present your point of who pi..es fuel into a downstream airflow better so that we can eliminate the human emotion/opinion factor. As long as we run a monte carlo with the data provided then and only then can you show that one is better or worse than the other. Keep in mind you have an audience here...
--Biff... no resume needed to identify my class standing.... the first... esquire... with a hand full of throttle... 6 sigma black belt...
As I have already pointed out I have not said EFI is no good for a 2T trials bike so I would appreciate it if people gave up posting this misrepresentation of my view.
You stated this Dadof2
"EFI clearly has advantages over Carbs regarding emissions,performance and to a lesser extent consumption. But against this EFI has much higher initial cost and complexity. To make EFI work well it needs a MAF sensor. This is fine on cars were there is plenty of room and electrical power. As far as I know neither the 4RT, Ossa or Vertigo has a MAF sensor, relying instead on more compact but less effective pressure sensing. The more you compromise EFI to make it fit a trials bike and reduce costs the less any potential advantage over a carb."
My 09 Raga is 9 lbs lighter than your eco with about 2/3's fuel in the tank. Again this is my bathroom scale and probably biased to make me feel better.
In the past i have cut the rear muffler in half making it as long as the end of the seat/airbox. Slightly louder but not too bad. That really eliminates the exhaust rubbing for the most part. My older TXT edition would pull the air box from the exhaust bracket. Yamaha's will rub through the exhaust, Montesa's will too. I think mx bikes would as well if the tire was not as far away with no sub-frame.
If you really want to eliminate your center box issues on a 2004-2009 GG pro get the 2002/2003 Steel mid box. I did on my 04 and sure it weighed a bit more but it was bullet proof. You have a slightly different rear muffler connection. If you try and go to the single piece system that came in 08 you have to modify the forward bracket at the frame. Eventually however if you go to the steel mid muffler you have to replace or repair the rear because the center section of the rear muffler will break out. I have never seen anyone sucessful going to the larger mid center most current system on the older bikes because i think the frame is not wide enough on the older ones.
Running any trials 2 stroke with out a mid muffler is not adviseable. Its just way too poppy and loud. My Dad's greeves are a great example of that.
I repack mine once a year. It usually burns away. I also perform the annual surgery on the center box. I crash enough to make it necessary. the 14 center box is much more robust.
Your tip: With the system gutted prewrap the inner pipe with packing and install it as an assembly. Wrapping it externally with mechanics wire also helps. I should really be getting mine done this week. Thanks for the reminder
All your trying to do here is push a stream of fuel into a stream of air. Yes that is a p...ing in the wind reference. You really don't need an air fuel down stream sensor to measure your burn quality on something as simple as a trials bike. When is a trials bike at steady throttle??? That's when stoich needed.
Use a Baro/IAT sensor, TP on your throttle body, injector with a pump, and a cylinder head temp sensor. You have a mass density injection system. Add a super CAP and you have your power supply issue resolve with out a battery. Want to get fancy add an EGT. That is plenty enough to tell you if the engine is burning its fuel and if its burning rich or lean over the long term which is really what we are concerned with anyways.
The delorto is really good about p...ing in the wind for majority of conditions. My Keihin is really really picky but does deliver fuel better when it's satisfied. A speed density system would give me Keihn performance with out being picky. A simple blink indicator diagnosis system is all that would be needed. Majority of this is off the shelf simplicity.
There are these two things that many many riders forget about when it comes to suspension. They are located between your calves and your thigh... your knees are the best suspension you have. If you don't bend them to get out of the way of the bike then no amount of money and technology will help. The more you bend your knees the better off you are. When you see a trials bicycle conquer a rock that looks impossible on a trials motorcycle and they have zero suspension you can only credit their knees. Bend them. Get used to touching your a.. on the rear fender and lowering your self to the seat.
Then spend the money. I know you have already purchased but don't burn out or substitue technology for skill. Its a trap that a lot fall into.
I don't agree. 'Specific density' is meaningless, density is already a specific measure. I suspect you mean specific stiffness, which is derived by Young's Modulus / Density. If you calculate this for common Steel, Titanium and for that matter Aluminium, alloys, you will find all three have a specific modulus of ~ 25 x 10^6 m^2 s^-2
So in your first post you referred to lighter more rigid titanium, it is not. It is less dense and less stiff.
In your second post you stated that for a given weight titanium is far stronger and far stiffer, it is not. Specific strength (in tension) of titanium is ~ 10% greater than steel, specific modulus, stiffness to weight ratio if you prefer, is much the same.
Since I wasn't in the BSA comp shop fifty years ago, I do not know if they were seeking to optimise weight, strength or stiffness. Titanium would be best for lightness, steel for strength/stiffness. Balancing all three, I.e specific strength and/or stiffness you have to conclude that there would not be much difference and that geometry and working method would possibly have as much influence as material choice. Then there is how the frame 'feels'. Some of us prefer the flex of steel frames (e.g. Gas Gas) compared to the stiffness of aluminium frames (e.g. Beta). The difference in feel in these two frames is much less about the materials chosen than it is about the small section versus large section structures used in frame construction.
Your right... other than the spelling of optimize... everything is spot on. Well done sir.
So lets turn this back to Vertigo. Given that "someone" might drop this bike at some point. Looking at the frame do you think that a simple blunder might compromise its integrity?
I don't ask this to challenge but more of a thought that I have been pondering... I have dented my fair share of trials frames. I have even broken a few. I know a thing or two about mechanical stresses but am open minded enough to understand the factors that may have not been considered. One dent in an frame shouldn't be the end of a bike. Club man riders won't ride it much if that was the case. My first rule of trials for a noob is to "let go if things get weird, the bike will be OK". I am interested to see how critical the girder based frame vertigo with damage will hold up. People are going to drop this thing. Smart people designed this thing but it still makes you wonder what were all of the considerations.
Dadof2,
TI and Steel have much different properties. Stiffness spoken generically does not speak for the forces exerted within a design. If you design a frame using one material does not mean its going to work for all materials. There are too many critical X's in design that have to be considered so no one factor is the answer. Never start your sentences with the word "But" and never ever ever ever not capitalize the sacred Jeff Smith's last name on a forum post about Trials. This takes away from your argument what ever that may be.
Funny you say that, as last week I got called in the office at work with the DM, and was told that one of my guys had won a "Top Tech" award and was the winner of a three day trip and tour to De Twa for a tour of several of the Chrysler facilities including the wind tunnel and training and design, bla,bla bla, and one factory.. I told them, he may not go! He came in, was presented the trip, smiled ans said thank you! Next day he came in and said "no way I am going to that **** hole in the middle of January!" find someone else! They did not even bother to ass me, (cannot figure why) so we gave it to another guy so he can pay the taxes on the W2 they will send him for a trip to the De Twa Hilton! By the time they finish it will cost him $500 I bet!
We have done the same thing for our guys out there in the field. Its not for every one I can admit. Living 5 miles from the center of that astrix hole you speak up i can attest that this is one of the weirdest places on earth. No other city that i know of is dead in the middle yet thriving on the outside.
This goes to anyone. If you are ever in De Twa as the Texans call it, Deee troit as the non natives call it or, Deh Troit as the natives call it, take i94 to Grosse Point. Find a road called Jefferson and drive south. You will see hundreds of amazing large houses on a beautiful lake. Then... as you cross into the Detroit city limits most people say "wait...." followed by a "hold on a second...". The transition is amazing from beautiful to... well Detroit.
Cope. If your prodigy hits the motor city have him look me up. Chances are they will bring him in during the auto show. I will stick him on a ty175 in a warehouse in Flint and see what he is made of...
so $0 for me now!!!) Most require this including nationals.
2001 Gas Gas Txt280 Fork Oil Weight
in Gas Gas
Posted
A very wise man and TC poster here has a great explanation of why fork level measurement would be better than volume. You can use either or. Experience says 300 however i have used as little as 250 to get my bounce on.
Here is the website where he explains this. http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/trials-suspension-tips.html
Here are his valuable words "Setting fork oil level by actual measurement rather than volume is more accurate. If your service manual doesn’t give a fork oil level but just the c.c. measurement here’s a way to find out. Flush the forks with kerosene or mineral spirits ( DON’T use gasoline ) and let them drain. Add the c.c. amount called for, compress the fork tube ( spring removed ) and measure from the top of the tube to the oil. A narrow metric ruler works best. You can experiment with more or less of a level to get the action you like. 5 mm changes in oil level will make a change that is noticeable but don’t raise it too high as the forks will hydraulic lock and possibly blow a fork seal. 10 to 15 mm should be a limit in most trials forks. Increases in fork oil level mostly affects the last third of travel."