rabie

sorry i'm a southern shandy drinking fairy, not a proper northern monkey - divided by a common language!

in my last post i went for brevity in the hope we'ld all move on / the hope that no one was that cynical / naive .... if we mean the ACU (ie not SACU) then they get you £10 "affiliation" (ie not a licence, thats £45+ for mx, enduro, etc) plus your levy per ride (£1 something i think without looking). as per my previous post you cna argue whether this is a lot or not a lot of money. you can argue if this sum is spent wisley or not - i've got thought on this issue (another time). But from this simple sum, in basic economic theory, the ACU are heavily invested in you riding your bike because they "make" money each time you ride. You are being sarcastic right? maybe the cold of laying out a trial today has knocked out my sarcasm detector. I'm going to miss a days trials riding to jump in my old banger of a car, to drive 2:15 in ACU HQ for a poxy seminar and then drive back again - i'm getting **** all for it. Now i could be incredibly generous and postulate that maybe some of the folks who have volunteered for a role are of their sufficient wealthy means and thus drive their own super cars - but i ain't seen one yet. even the folks elected doing a job on ACU's behalf, get given mileage to use their own vehicle - your not going to get rich on that. Now rightly or wrongly part of the ACU's job is to send people to the various european and world events to "babysit" british riders - we can argue later if this is a wise spend of money - but if we've got to do it, then we need to send someone there, if the event is in southern france then so be it. the AMCA send their people to the IMBA events, so i'm not sure what you are getting at. if one person (there are 8 of them on the trials and enduro committee) went to every event (world enduro, world trial, european enduro and european trial) then they might be away a lot - but not all 52 weekends of the year. Some poor sod has to negotiate the deal with Forestry Commission, the MOD, etc - this is done on a national basis. More generally, anyone who is on anything to do with the ACU is already an organiser with some club somewhere - ie with their own events, etc. There is not (we're not paying enough for there to be) a team of spare bodies waiting to come out and help each club. The ACU, rightly or wrongly, negotiate a national insurance deal, etc - part of that is we (clubs) agree to put events on in a kosher fashion - if i start doing things that we aren't covered for, etc then we are all going to get egg on our faces! The "aim" is to help organisers (who are all volunteers) put events on in a way that keeps everyone's a*** covered. Back to pricing the clubs set the fees, if the club doesn't have observers then that an issue for that club - not something we are going to solve here. If you think the club charging £15 (of which the ACU "get" £1 something and handle the insurance payment) is too dear then fair enough. Sorry we can't please you - some are still charging a tenner, other are over twenty. As to where the money goes, i've already said that it goes on doing various thing - some of which i personally disagree with - send a TdN team, a ladies TdN team, sending this babysitter, training of upcoming "talent", etc, etc. As to land, the ACU doesn't own any. There are clubs out there that do (i'm from one of them) - while we ourselves didn't get help from the ACU, we've borrowed (and paid back) money since for improvements (£25k). If you found some land tomorrow and had a plan of how to pay it back, then i'm sure (we've done it) something can be arranged. The reason for a licence (or affiliation card) is to prove that you are who you say are and that you are medically fit to ride. Its not for competence on a bike (or i wouldn't have one) - when the rider who is on for example serious heart drug, has a heart attack during the event, who performed the "duty of care" in letting the guy ride. You've seen all the fuss over concussion in american football, rugby, etc. After that lad who had the heart attack in football, there are lots of people asking should all sportsperson take some sort of stress ECG before being aloud to take part in sport. Fundamentally, some people are going to find a tenner for a "licence" to be barrier while other consider it to be a nominal sum. we've alluded to the vastly higher cost in mx, enduro, road race - the eyewateringly high cost abroad .... the ACU (used to?) contribute to LARA (http://www.laragb.org/) a motorsport wide resource for land access - in my mind this is the kind of serious lobbying we should "waste" our money on, for the purpose of great "access" and fighting the "antis". As to costs - see above. As to ACU championship rounds - fair coment, it is all down to the clubs. we could have people come down in a vehicle, put up banners, etc - but then who is going to pay them and with what money - we've already said "they" take too much money. As to stop or non stop - its a democracy, and it seams we are as a country, as a sport divided on the issue. I've got my thoughts, you have yours - neither of us if wholey right or wrong - why not be a "broad church" and let people get on with it ? as to who (clubs) get what championship rounds and by what method - yes it can seam opaque and thus one can draw these sort of inferences that it is not kosher. there are a lot of championships (10 trials & 4 enduro) so that's a lot of events. its one crazy balancing act of competing interests - geographical spread, new organisers, conflicting events, conflicting dates - its clearly no easy job, requiring the wisdom of Solomon that is always going to upset someone. Good luck to the poor sods that sort it out. If you want to go all Machiavellian about it - then get "your" person on the committee - even then i don't think you can write your own meal ticket. insurance - as above - this is by far the major cost to the ACU. we pay for it, but it is the managing of the claims that is time consuming and costly. when we do it wrong, we dig our bigger hole for ourselves - getting all this (boring) paperwork stuff right lowers the claims, and (hopefully) keep the vast insurance bill under control. i'll shut up now and think about all the way to Rugby and back .......

we've lots of clubs all over the county, normally a trial on someone almost every weekend as above, our centre trials dates list is at our website - http://www.southeasttrialscombine.org.uk/ once a month we have "group" trials on a sub region basis - see http://nktc.org.uk/and EKTC (no website) several of the local clubs also do club trials often once a month. tomorrow Bexleyheath have a club trial on, next weekend my club (Sidcup) have a big pre65 trial, while GEST have a club trial. the following weekend is group trial day both Gravesend and Sittingbourne have trials on. Bexleyheath have a club trial the weekend after then between xmas and new year OWLS have a club trial Check out some local sites; http://www.doublefive.co.uk/ http://www.motorbiketrials.com/ http://www.kytc.co.uk/ http://www.sidcupmotorcycleclub.co.uk/ http://www.owlsmotorclub.org.uk/ http://www.barhammotorcycleclub.co.uk/ http://www.fmcctrials.co.uk/ http://www.sittingbourneanddistrictmotorcycleclub.co.uk/ http://www.gest-club.co.uk/ http://www.tenterdenmcc.co.uk/

re cost both sides are right a cheap sport with low entry fees, low insurance, low licence fees is good for creating a low barrier to entry, etc a dearer sport would raise more money to do more things. some people would like funds to be raised to do stuff - be it political lobbying, training future stars, buying land, investing in venues, etc.

Lots of army (MOD, now Defence Estates / Landmark) land about, they also want to charge a lot of money to use it! Historically because the sites were big, available, had parking, etc it was "easy" for a club to use. Obviously now various bits of land have been withdraw from hire due to various reasons (environmental), increased MOD use (the return of troops from the Germany and the middle east), vastly increased cost and red tape to jump through (risk assessments, liability, warning signs, controlled access, etc) You see the odd bit on websites/facebook but we as a sport aren't very good at recording much (i can't say much we've not gone back and even tried to pull our old event data online) try some local trials websites for that area (might have missed some) http://www.kdmcc.com/ http://www.normandymcc.co.uk/ http://stargrouptrials.co.uk/ http://sunbeam-mcc.co.uk/ http://scmcc.moonfruit.com/ http://www.surreysb.co.uk/ http://www.talmag.co.uk/ http://thamesmcc.org/ http://www.tonghamtigers.co.uk/ http://www.thamesvalleytrials.co.uk/ http://www.witleymcc.org/ https://nhmctrials.wordpress.com/

Yes Broadly speaking regardless of who is running what under whom, we (organisers) should be able to talk to each other to get a beneficial (ie less/no clashes). obviously real life is more complex, this year the world dates have been very late, preventing the announcement of nationals, which of course affects local dates. Other factors cause dates to be awkward, such as local considerations, other sports / events people are involved in, etc (eg we're moving a trial because most my organising team are going to the MX des Nations). What might affect you where you are doesn't occur/affect someone else and vice versa.

the other issue (i find) is the "spread", ie the winner of a class might be on really low marks, but the last rider might have (say) 3'ed and even 5'ved most sections. when the "spread" is this vast it normally indicated that a) you have got riders who are riding in a class they can't cope with (but might be learning / first ride in new class / etc) and that some good quality riders are "bedblocking" (to use a NHS phrase). now the realy question in the above situation, is where do you pitch the route difficulty if you've got that wide range of ability in practice for us we find that a lot of our "novice" / red route riders won't move up a class (is the next route too hard - probably) and thus we (all local clubs) make that route harder for the top riders in that class, while at the same time this drift in difficulty makes the class unappealing for the riders wanting to enter it (ie the jump from beginner to novice becomes too large) how you solve this requires the wisdom of solomon!!!

michael - that's not how we run it here in the UK under the ACU. The ACU charge the organiser a fixed amount per adult rider, youth rider, passenger, etc. The idea being that its fair, small trials are economical, and the risk is proportionally based on the number of riders. That said the insurance component includes a variety of thing (public liability, third part liability, limited personal accident and other things).

while you've never seen anyone be fuel tested - the mx guys started to use "race fuels" like the guys do in American mx (VP race fuels, etc), which led to fuel testing at MX GPs. obviously if you wanted to be a real awkward git you would put in a fuel protest (very expensive) and it would be upheld if that is what guys where using. the real question would be how do phrase a rule to allow 2T additives for these kinds of bikes, but without enhancing performance ???

vinyl wise - it is the difficultly of getting the template right from the 3D shape - once you have it drawn up there are thousand of sign companies that can print it. there are also specialists who will have specific vinyl for difficult applications (like bike plastics) and then its a question of how good a laminate you put on it. all of these things any sign company could get it, but the specialists that do bikes will be geared up for (eg spiral gfx, etc - search for mx graphics). specialist application like this *may* de-laminate if you use "normal" laminate (only 100 microns thick), there is some really heavy duty stuff out there (300 microns thick).

putting an economics hat on i would contend that a) the number of entries an event gets has very little to do with price ---> other factors - such as (but limited too) weather, clashes, quality of sections, loos, parking, butty wagon, etc have an effect i would contend that trials are too cheap (weather against bike/kit prices, other motorsport, average earnings), i would like to raise entry fees to create more income so i can re-invest it (i've a long wish list at my club) c) "price elasticity of demand" for trials (especially in the short term) is very steep (if i remember my economics correctly). what i'm saying is that having spent all that money on a bike, kit, van, etc - am i going to quibble over £2 or £3 for an entry fee when i've laid out that money? obviously in the longer term this effect is lessened (a bit like the price of petrol going up doesn't stop you buying a car, but you kids might never learn to drive and just use public transport) d) re disposable income, wages, etc - a quick look shows £26k is average income. how you measure disposable income, which inflation measure you use over time, purchasing power parity, etc all vary and i think its extremely hard to prove/argue that trials is now more costly that it once was (but i'm not an economist to prove the alternative that my gut says is more probable - that trials is still very cheap)

there will be a code on the tyre telling year and week of production - possible even which factory. i would guess that Dunlop make them in one plant and ship them world wide. Michelin make a lot of their off road tyres in places like Thailand and then ship them worldwide. something to do with economies of scale and cost of the mould.

to what extent does the insurance (ie risk) component make up trials entry fees vs autograss? i don't have MSA figure to hand for autograss, but trials (checking the current ACU price list) is £3 per rider (£2.20 for a passenger) ***that is just the insurance*** the inference of my previous post (and others) is that entry fee is used for different things. my personal opinion is that it should be higher with the extra used to buy land, build sections, buy plant and pay lobbyists - but you make a valid case for an alternative

a quick look here (PDF - AMCA website); causes me to highlight a few; * The machine may also move back slightly as the rider regains momentum. * No penalty for TOUCHING tape or Section Cards * NOTE! Clubs may adopt their own marking rules, any changes should be stated on the entry sheet or the signing on sheets * A machine will be deemed to be in the section when the front wheel has passed the Section Begins card and marks will be awarded until the back wheel has passed the Section Ends card. * 13 to 15 year olds - Maximum 250cc but that said, having read it a few times, i would say that it is "stop permitted" rules (TSR22A in ACU speak) as i can't see a rule saying "ceasing forward motion is a failure"

how far from London are you willing to go? us soft southern fairies are not known for our trials terrain but there is stuff out there someone like http://www.freestyletraining.net/(kent / East Sussex -SE of london) do trials training, might do bike hire - best enquire as to events on the 20th; there is a regional event just outside of canterbury - http://www.barhammotorcycleclub.co.uk/(about 1hr SE of london) there is a regional event just outside of london (not sure where "Brickmills is) - http://www.berkotrials.com/(10 mins NW of london) there is a regional event just outside of ipswich (see this page on the eastern acu website) (NE of london) there is a small classic event just outside of ipswich (see http://www.eastern-fourstroke-association.co.uk/)(about 1hr NE of london) can't find the southern centre dates list to hand (for SW of london)

there are two guys here in kent i can think of - depending upon how complex the bit is. but i can understand how that's too far away for you

yeah i'm not knocking it, its the best compromise for everyone, but as jimmy says a long drive, and the guys from scotland, etc stayed overnight. what i'm getting at is its a real effort by everyone nationwide to meet up at one place. there is no better answer as a place to meet, i'm sure some sort of online confrenceing will come in the future (that old skool people can use)

Going to Rugby can be a bit of drag on the hard pressed organiser (its a long way for [mostly] everyone), also it's the opportunity cost - what are you not doing (working/riding/organising/family) by being there.... --> says me going to Rugby on sunday ...

what's your "typical hourly rate" ??? - minimum wage is now on course for what £9/hour soon ... and what do you think the entry fee are for the events you a re picking off the top of my head "down souf" ; Trials - very cheapest might be £10 at a club trial, but i often pay £15 (Bexleyheath & DMCC), also £15 for most group/centre trials (£20 on the day). we (Sidcup & DMCC) charged £18 four our centre trial last month and a probably upping our group trial in the autumn to £18. some clubs down here that use MOD / Forestry land pay vast land fees (maybe £1000 per event) so charge more (~£20) as for MX and Enduro we charge £50 ish a rider.... as to what you get for your money, the things people want from the entry fee has gone up. * the ACU "take" about £5 in rider levys and insurance payments. * land costs * consumables * observers - i hear of several club paying "reasonable expenses" to get observers. we stock a raffle for of prizes for ours plus a sizeable lunch bag. * trophies, etc * toilets on top of that you might want to invest in your venue. riders want (?) obstacles developed - this winter i spent a few days in a digger moving rocks around (digger, diesel, etc ££££) and i'ld like to do more but time, labour and money are limiting factors so what the rider in the time frame you mention may have expected much less from their entry fee (and may have been more willing to contribute labour) - which may lead to a like for like lower costs re inflation - you could always work it out (Bank of England) but that is probable CPI/RPI not "purchasing power parity" that you suggest

while you can do a puncture repair on the main bit of the tread once a "normal" puncture (eg nail) gets near the edge and/or is in the sidewall, to fix it (by drilling it our and patching it) you would compromise the structural integrity of the tyre. now that's the car tyre answer - at low pressures off road you can risk what you want ...

under 16s IIRC in the UK

bridgestone ultra heavy duty tubes 6mm thick Michelin ultra heavy duty tubes 4mm thick others available (i think maxxis do some) standard mx tubes are reinforced rubber (and cheaper compared to UHDs) trials tubes and standard road bike tubes are of "normal" thickness/strenght

what level of personnel accident cover do you get in Scotland (sacu) ??? we (rest of UK - ACU) rolled back to 4 weeks hospitalisation, loss of eye, limbs, death, etc many years ago as it was so expensive and abused. sorry to threadjack a bit

that's life someone (!?!) might seize the bull by the horns and do something. we've done it, other have done it (acquired land). then your on tot he next questions - paying back the money, looking after the place, sorting out the insurance, etc c'est la vie plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

briefly from my perspective (a very long way south) why does your "centre" (from my perspective and the above documents it's what the SACU appears to be) need to hire 4 full time members of staff if it is only a "centre". worst ways a 40 hour week is £12.3K per year so you have to clear a lot of money. also out lot down here have stopped send stewards to trials (what happens? results posted afterwards so no protests) so more costs cut. each "centre" gets to chose its own funding method, we've picked a per rider basis so if you have a trial with just 6 riders you haven't got to clear any fixed overhead. obviously there a certain differences for scots law compared to what the ACU covers (but then again there must be diffrences for channel island and IOM, hey the IOM is a centre) NB these are my own personally observations, not the views of the SEC ACU, Sidcup, or anyone else