Nationals? Missing The Mark?

[sting32]

I dont know what you guys thought of the nationals, I want some of you guy's that showed up, opinions.

What about the rest of us? Unlike Michlin wants to think or make it out to be, Trials is an AMATURE sport in the USA... remember, Motocross used to be the same, so maybe in the future it will happen to trials... but right now admit it, trials is AMATURE sport.

Reason I bring this up? well... I just wonder what you other "clubmen" think?

Right now, the biggest class at most of our clubs here in the middle USA,(meaning the most riders drawn to show up and compete MONTHY, not the once a friggin year crowd) is Amature, Intermediat, and Sr expert (on that list we all were talking about it would be classes 2 below the best rider in the club rides... I bet you it is the same where you live...

Huston, we have a problem....

So each year Trials puts on an event to test the what, <1% of the population of motorcycle enthusiasts across the country, an admittly niche group. And of that NICHE community, only the top 5-10% of that small group, barely are even qualified to ride the loop, let alone compete?

FWIW, with some long discussion (not on a message board anywhere) what this has caused IMHO, is that to then to modify this situation of way to friggin tough sections is, riders are smart, they move down in classes (some refer to this as sand baggin although I wont and dont).

So what do we need to agree to do, now that I brought this up for argument? nothing. just want to see if you guys think the same as me, the same as I think I see competitiors are doing, and since I have been riding almost 33 years.

Pro's being a 0, best club champs being a 1, Experts being a 2, Im a 3, {sometimes I feel more like maybe a 4 some weekends, when I dont ride very well (lol)}.

Ok, but! At this level, I am and would be a lot more willing to travel the country to compete against like level riders on like sections. My gripe is that, I dont need to drive 1000+ miles to FIVE out of 12 of the 18 sections each loop, that they think I am going to skinny up the side of that cliff (or some risky object), and drop 4ft into a pile of rocks, Hell I can drive 2 miles and NOT do that right here where I live! That stuff is for the expert & masters to do (and pro's of course).

But, This is where I am comfortable and feel I more than challenge myself each month. But had I made it to the nationals, I doubt I would have called it that much fun? (sorry my dad and many buddies did, so Im going off his and others accounts of the trials).

**** Edit, didn't mean for it to read like I put words into dads mouth, yeah he had a blast, worked his butt off. We do that, & we call it fun, probably why we bother to compete in th 1st place is because it is fun. what I cant find words to express correctly is: more generic "FUN" that makes you say "wow, cant wait to do that again" as apposed to "Ok, I went, but I cant do that anymore..."

That better explanation? hope so *****

Maybe my question from the outset of this post should have read: When & Where is the "nationals" for the rest of us going to be held?

Maybe there is more support for a nationals at the lower levels? plus a little less difficulty in putting on such an event, which might appeal to the bigger "market" of riders in our niche sport?

Warning! Im not picking on anyone, Not Lane, not Dan Brown, nobody! Not anyone involved with any previous rounds, hardly even the whole NATC or national supporters or anything, if you think I am, ignore the post and read something else...

Edited September 28, 2006 by Sting32

[motomilt]

Novice nats, Clubman nats, Expert nats, Pro nats

Did I forget anybody?

Sounds like a local event with a name change will work.

Call it a national and they will come.

"I dont know what you guys thought of the nationals"

FUN

" And of that NICHE community, only the top 5-10% of that small group, barely are even qualified to ride the loop, let alone compete? "

If you can't ride a loop or ride for 7 hours. No you should not be there. Have you ever been? guessing ?

"FWIW, with some long discussion (not on a message board anywhere) what this has caused IMHO, is that to then to modify this situation of way to friggin tough sections is, riders are smart, they move down in classes (some refer to this as sand baggin although I wont and dont). "

People should ride at There own level that they like to ride and have fun doing it.

'Ok, but! At this level, I am and would be a lot more willing to travel the country to compete against like level riders on like sections. My gripe is that, I dont need to drive 1000+ miles to FIVE out of 12 of the 18 sections each loop, that they think I am going to skinny up the side of that cliff (or some risky object), and drop 4ft into a pile of rocks, Hell I can drive 2 miles and NOT do that right here where I live! That stuff is for the expert & masters to do (and pro's of course). "

You should not be there then. Problem solved. Get better, ride tuff lines at the local events and if your willing. go and see the Nationals first hand. You might come back saying that was fun.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Motomilt

[rlracer]

Hi Sting, not sure what your looking for but here's my take. We have in this area the central regionals that would be the locals nationals and AVTA is hosting one of the events and I look forward to riding with all of you there.

If you can ride the local expert class at home you will do ok at any national, just hard to beat a local one his home grounds.

I too have passed some riders on the loop at a national that did not belong there.

My thought is you never know how good you are until you travel to differant areas and ride with other riders of your caliber.

Sting are you going to make Muenster if so see ya there.

[sting32]

RL...

about muenster... Unfortunately, I have prior commitments..

I started the post, reworded it several times, trying to make sure I didnt offend, then it would NOT post (or seemed not to.) then I hastily re-pasted my last version over top what did post, ending up with 2 posts lol.. so I should pretty much rewrite the whole famn ding...

What I was going for, hmmm... I was wondering what other riders felt about the nationals and how obviously over most of us's head it (by many accounts) seemed to be? Maybe it is just right for what it is! (I would agree with that too, for what is is... so think of me as just being devils advocate now...)

I look at the results since only pop made it this year, I hope to go in the future, for the reason you stated, "wont know how bad I am until I go there..."

If I save up (yeah in this day no worse than probably years ago) to do these things, how bad will I risk being able to work on monday after the trials, for one, and will I have fun? What about the "rest of us" that are semi dedicated to improving, that show up monthly rain or shine, I am suggesting that the rest of us might be an untapped market for a big trials event? This is going hand in hand in what Dan Brown has going, a nice resort for trials to happen on. I thought I seen where someone said or he said he thnks he might break even with the nationals & the pros' weekend this past year...

Well? it seems to suggest that he (trials in general) needs more venue's? the whole numbers thing.

you know as well as I do trials is a small, tiny percentage of even off road section of motorcycle/atv riders in the USA. (unlike over seas by the sounds of it). So then we have a national, that seemingly is not only pretty tough to "put on" but by shear Skills alone required to compete, excludes 90% of the general membership across the country (guessing)? Im thinking with this year, & no world rounds, It just might be an opening to an idea?

THEN, in my question is aimed 180 degrees out of phase with Michlin, instead of trying to produce an increas of the "pro" trials rider base in the usa, wonder if we shouldn't be tapping into the larger base that already exists? The amature... Right now, for people like the die hards that arent going to ever achieve top class status, are however more likely to have the where with all (funds, desire, dedication) to compete in a venue that doesn't attempt to hurt them.

Been wrestling with this one... as I typed the original post...

One thing about golf, there is a handicap system that let me (a casual player) play with just about anyone, in the "leagues" at the country club, and still have a chance to win, Plus I wont be risking broken bones to prove how dang good I am. Trials is so much akin to golf...

Maybe ESPN will invent "Extreme golf" in the future, where to be the best you have to be able to hit a golfball while flying a parachute from the radio tower above green #3?? And Motomilt can infer that I am wuss, when I pass on that too... (LOL). NO I know he didnt, someone will though..

Edited September 28, 2006 by Sting32

[brian r]

Yeah, more classes, more riders!

Sting, I sent you a .gif a while back.

Did you get it?

[sting32]

Yeah, more classes, more riders!

Sting, I sent you a .gif a while back.

Did you get it?

Not sure, where did you send it? gmail? Yahoo? Ill look. I get a little too much garbage, hope I didnt goof and toss it too...

BTW, gmail & yahoo are my only 2 emails I use anyhow.

[malibudon]

What about the rest of us? Unlike Michlin wants to think or make it out to be, Trials is an AMATURE sport in the USA... remember, Motocross used to be the same, so maybe in the future it will happen to trials... but right now admit it, trials is AMATURE sport.

I hate to make a spelling flame, but if you're going put a word in all caps and repeat it for emphasis, at least take the time to spell it properly.

Amateur.

[axulsuv]

Ok While I am up tonight reading and ranting , here goes one more !!!

I seem to have it lodged in my memory , That riding trials in the NETA in the early 70's , That if you won the novice class X # of times you were moved up to the next class !!! AND you had no choice in the matter !!! And it was a big event and everyone new you were in the next class now and if you won X # of times there it happened again !!! over and over until you were riding against DON SWEET and the rest of the best AND YOU BELONGED THERE !!!!

It may just be a distant memory from my past , But I thought the whole point was to get Better at this thing we all love and compete at a higher level of diffuculty than the month before ! and if it took you two seasons to move up , so be it !!! You rode at your skill level !!!

Glenn

[alan bechard]

Sting, if I understand your post, you want to make an easier class at the nationals?

Just a very general observation, I did say very general, but most folks that are not on the level to ride a national in the sportsman class, are not interested enough to travel the US to compete. I realize there are certainly exceptions (sounds like you are one) but adding classes and lines if nobody shows up to compete them would not benefit anyone.

Too really know though, someone is going to have to try it.

You could probably hold a national, then schedule a regional event in conjunction with it to cater to the lower classes and see what the turnout would be. My experience would say that you will consume all your "riders" as "workers" and will have very little additional participants.

Natc meeting just around the corner though so now is the time to step up and make it happen if that is what you want to see.

And Axul,

As some of us get older and fatter, I want to slide back down the ladder. I personally have no interest in being the "champ" and am faced with the reality that it is not happening. Is there a provision there that I move down a class if I come in last a couple of times? I for one would ride exhibition or non award status if I felt I was sandbagging or otherwise holding a spot in a class that was hindering someone from moving up.

[brian r]

Sting, e mail me if you want.

brian (at sign) metalmarkers.org

Edited September 29, 2006 by Brian R

[sherpa]

Im sure I will live to regret this but....

I suppose that the numbers could speak for themselves. When the majority of the scores are upwards of 100 (which is the case for the two rounds that I rode) it tends to tell me that perhaps the bar is bit to high. Sure there is always going to be the few who score low consistently, but what about the many who don't. As a rider I can tell you that I don't like sections that are not challenging, but on the other hand, when I spend the day riding sections that 80% of the riders have no chance of scoring less than three it makes you want to re-evaluate why you bothered to show up.

Additionally, I can tell you as a spectator its no fun watching one rider after another push their bike through a section.

Why would any spectator viewing trials for the first time want to get into a sport like that? (Gee I think I'd like to spend $6000.00 on a motorcycle so I can push it all day)

I think its simple, if you want great riders; you have to have a large crop of not so great riders to grow them in. That

[karl1]

Sherpa you just happend to pick two of the hardest rounds there have been in the past couple of years. If you look back most of the nationals are won with under 10 points. I personally would rather have 100 rather than 10 at least i had a challange.

I think the only time you see 100 is becaus of wether---- wet

[wayne thais]

From what I saw when I just looked at the results, AZ and OK were good trials but TN and RI were way too hard.

Here is a quote from the NATC rules that I think needs to be enforced. It does not look like it was in TN and RI.

"The sections must not be so long or difficult that bottlenecks result and cause the time limit to be unfair. The sections must neither contain impossible turns, ascents, descents, nor be too difficult. Ideally, no section should require more than 50 seconds to ride. No section shall be used which has not been test ridden a minimum of five times by either the Referee or his designee to determine that layout, deterioration or weather will not render the section too difficult to rider or machine."

I am now retired from riding trials so it does not really matter too me, however I still love the sport and want to see it grow.

My youngest son and I went to our first National several years ago and learned we were not ready, we ended up being spectators, we went back two years later and he was ready and did OK, I still was not ready but had a good time.

If the promotors make the sections too hard the riders who are on the fence will never return.

I believe that if the above stated rule is followed, the problem will be resolved.

Wayne

[sherpa]

Thanks Wayne for your input. What you say is true, the rules are not strictly followed.

The Nationals are the big show, because of the hype that goes with a national event many more people show to watch who other wise would not go to a local event. This is our only opportunity to show the country what a great and fun sport Trials is. Last year I rode both the Vermont and NY rounds. While I had a great time at High Gate and I feel they did a great job, I think Mike Komer really nailed it at Alma. Sure the really good guys had low scores (many under 20 points for the day) but the rest of us were right in there most were not more than 80 points. All the sections were challenging on the support line, only one was really difficult perhaps more along the lines of an expert section, this made for a good challenging tie breaker. After mikes event I couldn

[sting32]

Thanks Sherpa, that is pretty much our sentiment. got to ask though, "pay for it how?" you feel like we are alienating ourselves by daring to speak up?

----

This thread got off on the wrong foot, as I started out to be funny, then it evolved to a serious question. Then the post originally, didnt even post (the entire text I had typed and finally wanted to post was "cleared" and I recieved that 404 not found error). I went back to the posting page and viola, all was lost. Still I had an agenda, I wanted some imput, from more than just the few guys I heard and overheard, from so I then ran with a hack job of what I tried to say... Hence the messed up topic and description. Anyway, I started this thread, to kind of get a feeling from other attendees... As I was thinking 'fairly,' that everyone wants to know what to "improve on" and get feedback about the nationals, especially (insert trials masters name here).

Honestly how do you rate the nationals? IMHO, I think 99% said it was pretty dam good, appreaciating the extraordinary hard work to those who put it on, but also the volunteers <Plus figuring the "for what it is and was" history, I guess>

I know as we filled out the forms, ony cirticism would be is that it many loops and sections were way to hard IMHO for many, below pro/highest class below pro. FWIW, If we thougth it was just too hard for us, I would've kept my thoughts and opinions to myself you know...

and maybe it is just me (us). maybe you all think it aint so bad. well this is how I hoped to find out, posting...

Now because I dont think it is "just me" and that I was thinking how if we spoke up, we just might keep more of the "base" of riders involved with trials and big competitions. I feel well, there is this some what less "risk" rider, where the majority of us trials enthusiasts exist.

I think, these are the guys and gals, that would love to have an honest competition on reasonable sections on a reasonable loop, but against fellow similiar skill level riders. These are whom I hope would also want to attend such an event?

Yeah I too see the 2 sides to even my question/suggestion, those of us who are gung ho, go for broke type of competitiors have the nationals as they are now, to fullfill that once or 4 times a year inclination to "risk it all" to prove to no one but themselves how good they really are. So I assume you wont come because you assume it would be "to easy"?

But as I look at results I think not only dad and others like him, came away from the overdone toughness of the nationals, some what glad he was still walking, unlike the other guys who entered.... with that "wow, not sure I am up to doing this again, ever..." (not withstanding there are some of us, including me, that risk disability/injury solely because I have not gotten into even close to the "fitness" level I would need to ride on National as they are... let alone 5 rounds).

Maybe that is the target? I dont think that was the target.