What If..............................?

[alan bechard]

Boof, you lost me, these are the numbers (albeit, just grabbed off the top of google,)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1572533,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/31/illegal.immigration/

Now my math skills are not the greatest, but if I got the decimals and all them zero's in the right place.... I think we have a little more problem with illegal immigration then you guys.

So, even with those measures that you speak of, and I certainly agree many are misplaced, we still have a huge problem to "beat back" as I do not know that it will ever be overcome.

Atom, I think the point is, that we probably don't disagree all that much really, there are a few of us though that take offense and get sick of hearing that the US is the cause of all this and how screwed up "we" are, and the follow on thought is that "you" do it right. I think there is probably more common ground between you and I and our visions of our government then not but I do not think you will find me badmouthing you guys, your system of government, or your actions. There are plenty of targets there, I just choose not to bring it too these forums normally. And if you get your news and views of the president from Youtube, well, enough said.

To the guy that said what if Germany had won....... Are you freaking nuts?

Now I have probably as close of relations with Germans as anyone on here, German wife, sister married to a German, half German kids carrying dual citizenships.

You need to go look at what happened, while I know you will never do it, go visit Dachau one day, it is fairly close to you (in my terms). If that does not turn your stomach, and answer why you did not want to fall under that regime, then maybe you are right for you.

But just think, you would not have even the freedom to talk about the possibilities openly as you just did.

Hmmm, peace out.

[timp]

Sorry, didn't really use a good example with the Germans and the war. Perhaps should have used the Romans as an example of world domination.

[dan]

Sorry, didn't really use a good example with the Germans and the war. Perhaps should have used the Romans as an example of world domination.

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"

[alan bechard]

In an attempt at levity (although true if you follow along)

They set the size of the space shuttle booster rockets for us.

England / UK is in the middle of that discussion by the way.

Well I may as well point the way, so folks do not need to look.

http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html

Edited October 24, 2006 by Alan Bechard

[the addict]

dan, may hook that out and watch later, great film

[atomant]

Anyway, would you really want to see the UK do away with more of the good things earlier (actually mildly socialist) Labour governments brought in?

Give me a list of the good things you perceive as being 'brought in' by the labour government? This will be interesting

[bikespace]

Obviously chatting on Trials Central isn't going to change anyones minds about relgion. Faith is just that, not science, not proof.

Don't forget, Thomas was a desciple and HE thought he needed to be shown everything too (and he was). That where the phrase "Doubting Thomas" comes from.

If there's one thing that religion gives you it's an argument for everything, all based on blind faith.

You're saying that I doubt your faith, and you have a story that shows that I may be wrong to doubt your faith. And this story is of a disciple, a story relayed over time, to promote your religion.

That's the whole argument Brian - we have no reason to believe that these stories aren't made up.

For a logical person it's very difficult to believe in something that has so many impossible stories. Ahh but they were miracles I hear you say. Yeah - when did we last see a miracle? So many in one lifetime, but nowadays when we would have the means to disprove them, they don't tend to happen.

I will not deny the possibility, but to be realistic you've got to look at the probability. Not very probable unless you're willing to wear the blind faith blinkers.

In my view it's short sighted not to admit that it may all be nonsense, but the whole religion is based around unquestioning faith. Why would you base something around unquestioning faith? The "because I said so" method is usually flawed.

I'm willing to admit there may be a God, but fail to see that any scriptures provide any more than a remote possibility.There are just as many scriptures for every other religion. Why would yours be the right one. If yours isn't the right one, then which one is.

I really don't understand how any intelligent person can base an argument on blind faith.

Edited October 24, 2006 by bikespace

[the addict]

Nice post Bikespace

[brian r]

Your argument isn't with me.

I beleive in God, and Jesus Christ.

Nothing you can type would change my mind on this matter.

I can't see electricity but I wouldn't stick my finger in a plug.

I can't see gravity but I rely on in all the time.

I can't see God but I know he's there and he's proven it to me

many times.

[bikespace]

Your argument isn't with me.

I beleive in God, and Jesus Christ.

Nothing you can type would change my mind on this matter.

I can't see electricity but I wouldn't stick my finger in a plug.

I can't see gravity but I rely on in all the time.

I can't see God but I know he's there and he's proven it to me

many times.

That's sort of what I was getting at Bri Not trying to dog you down.

My ears have always been open, I've studied various religions and still remain open to a compelling argument.

I've had lengthy, totally unbiassed (in my view) discussions, but it tends to come back down to the similar arguments you've just quoted.

As an electronic engineer I'm fairly happy with the argument behind electricity, and we seem to agree on this one - I keep my fingers to myself too, and on my way through various levels of physics I'm fairly comfortable with what Mr Newton had to say, and gravity has a greater effect on me than most.

I don't think those two examples are comparable with your last statement though. It will seem like bullying if I ask for examples of the proof, so I won't, but if that proof would stand up to any level of intelligent argument you'd be a rich man.

Where we're very different - I can honestly say that if you were to type the right things then you could possibly change my mind on this. My mind is open, but it won't be made up by blind faith.

This blind faith is what worries some of us about the USA. I know it's not everyone, we just seem to get the general idea that blind faith is right up there backing Bush no matter what. I think it may be good to question it sometimes.

We might be wrong but generally the British are MUCH less religious that the US, and I think these two things are linked. I think generally we are more open minded.

Edited October 24, 2006 by bikespace

[the addict]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saukpWSrD7o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72wqPPCoPQE...ted&search=

Edited October 24, 2006 by Betarev3

[atomant]

Your argument isn't with me.

I beleive in God, and Jesus Christ.

Nothing you can type would change my mind on this matter.

Then your mind is closed! Every day there is hard evidence to make a case against religion and yet whatever you see you will discount and deny. I am not a believer but I maintain an open mind. Like Bikespace, if something were to happen to prove the existence of God then I would believe.. ..

but saying that, this is how it is I believe .. you are born , you live, you die . no reincarnation, no after life no sod all ! but, I will keep an open mind

[slapshot 3]

Wasn't going to get into the whole religion thing but why the hell not.

So there's the start, what do you believe? Heaven and Hell or are they just words, why the hell not, cleaning that section was heaven.....the conundrum.

Personally, I'm a scientist, I believe what I can tangibly understand and prove, Darwinian Theory, Einstiens Theory of Relativity etc etc etc BUT I also want to believe in a greater power, call it God, call it the Force call it Bhudda, Mohammet whatever you want. I've had enough personal heartache in life to question whether the great God exists to bring happiness and joy to us all. Ultimately it's down to where your faith lies.

We each have a choice in life to believe what we want. We can open ourselves to brainwashing or we can open our own minds to decide for ourselves, we should never decry anyone for the power of their beliefs. This is strong in many areas the US, various places and maybe therein lies one of the problems we've discussed in the erosion of society. Is the breakdown due to there being less influence of the church, of discipline, of respect and all the other fundamental elements of the society we and our parents grew up in.

tolerance is great......my favourite line; I'm not racist just don't bring me bad people

Edited October 24, 2006 by Slapshot 3

[bikespace]

Wasn't going to get into the whole religion thing but why the hell not.

I've had enough personal heartache in life to question whether the great God exists to bring happiness and joy to us all.

Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion. The people with religious beliefs tend to want to discuss it less than the non-religious once there is any question of proof. There are far more arguments against it than for it (not that that in itself proves anything)

Not sure how heartache or happiness has any bearing on whether a God exists though?

we should never decry anyone for the power of their beliefs.

Don't think there was any decrying going on. One group have one view, another group have another view, we were discussing the reasons for those beliefs. The non-religious tend to have their beliefs questioned a lot more in our society than the religious even though we have the weight of science and historic evidence on our side.

I'm probably becoming less open minded as I get older, but only because of the lack of any evidence. I like to discuss the possibilities - but it does amaze me that my young impressionable kids come home from school having been told religious facts by similar people with "faith", and I have to explain totally illogical concepts to them without calling their teacher a liar. I have to tell them to take the religious ramblings with a pinch of salt because it seems that due to belief, there seems to be an inability to teach kids that they are 'beliefs' and not 'facts'.

If our whole society were more open minded then maybe our kids could understand other beliefs a little easier.

[atomant]

The TTC last year was an eye opener for me too. I must of counted at least 14 churches in an area the size of Shrewsbury. But at the same time, we saw an entourage of 11 police cars once, we saw some man being chased into a car park and the police getting out and going up to him with guns out. There were nearly no one around at night walking (except us lot of course) but everyday we were there, we saw at least 6 occurences of patroling police cars. The population is only 13,000 people ?

Such a contrast, why is the county so religious yet there is a need for so much law enforcement for so little people.?