malibudon Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 How many of the MX and super cross lad's are running fuel injection Well, you won't see it on US MX and Supercross tracks until you see it in the showroom, per the production-based rules. The motocross race quads from Suzuki and Kawsasaki have EFI, but they also have batteries and plenty of room for the EFI paraphernalia. EFI is also being used in MX bikes in the Japanese national championships, as well as some FIM MX bikes. It's coming, and you're going to see it sooner than I think you think. Except for cost, it's a clearly superior system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideup Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 (edited) MD ......"it's clearly superior system"..... I say the above is pretty matter of FACT statement. Are you an expert on the subject? Remember owning a 4rt does not make one an expert. Beta press release leads me to believe it's not so cut and dry: Quote from translation: ......."The reason to use a traditional carburetor instead of an injection system is that the carburetor works better at low revolutions, thus being able to turn to less than 1000 rpm, and facilitating the control of the moto in low and a minimun speed apt for trial. Thus to 1000 rpm this motor tour perfectly, being able to maintain a slow motion to only 750 rpm."...... Edited November 27, 2006 by sideup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 (edited) MD ......"it's clearly superior system".....I say the above is pretty matter of FACT statement. Are you an expert on the subject? Remember owning a 4rt does not make one an expert. I'm suprised this is even a debate, I'll go with Don and say it's a clearly superior system and I thought that before I had one That's part of the reason I bought it, BTW Don doesn't have one. Even if the carb works well on the Beta it still needs maintaince and needs to be adjusted for elevation, You don't have to do eithier with a Montesa. If you want it to run slower gear it down! My bike has a 44 tooth sprocket on the rear and it feels perfect. I have been wanting to say this for a long time. As a guy who has had Beta's for years and liked them very much, am I missing somthing here? Take a Rev3 put a 4t motor in it with a carb and have it weigh more than a Montesa and everybody is going crazy. I have always liked Beta's and I may like riding these bikes, they just don't seem that revelutionery to me Edited November 27, 2006 by sirhc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinell Posted November 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Take a Rev3 put a 4t motor in it with a carb and have it weigh more than a Montesa and everybody is going crazy. I have always liked Beta's and I may like riding these bikes, they just don't seem that revelutionery to me Only time will tell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munch Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 k,are you ok with a complex 4t ? as i hear you have problems sending a simple message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinell Posted November 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 k,are you ok with a complex 4t ? as i hear you have problems sending a simple message Reliability outweighs complexity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munch Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Chris, The new rev Is incredibly differant from yours and the 4 stroke will weigh only one pound more than the Rev 3 you had.. I know for a fact the monty weighs much more than your rev did as I just sold a mont used..and weighed it .. lets just say "not as light as advertised" Maybe I got a heavy one ..lol Hope the boy is kickin' butt out there.. Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) Ron, Yes, my new Montesa is heavier than my old Beta and I have yet to even see a 07 Beta in person. I don't believe any of thier "claimed" weights, but I figure they all must lie about the same so with that the Beta is claimed heavier. If the Beta 4t does weigh only one pound more than a 05 Rev3 than that is impressive. The hole Beta 4t news broke about a week after I decided to get the Montesa and before I had taken delivery. I thought about it for a little bit, but decided to go ahead and get the Montesa. If the Beta did have EFI, I would have one on order. Who knows after I ride one I may have to get my wife another diamond ring, that's how I got the Montesa I'll ask what a lot of other people want to know, how soon do you expect them in the U.S.? Oh and the kid is doing very well he keeps bugging me for a 125 Edited November 28, 2006 by sirhc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideup Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Sirhc, As I said owning one does not make you an expert (specialist) in fuel delivery. I just find it odd users can make blanket statements without any real world data to back it up. Where as a company that tests many prototypes, and are staking the future on new models and decisions they make are instantly discredited by these so-called experts. It's like someone else said it like they want it to fail. All manufacturers have EFI available for their use if they choose. Do you think any manufacturer would immediately eliminate one type of system without first testing? and testing and testing? It is obvious Beta has not spared any thing on this new bike and they took years to get it right. In the end they must weight the plus's and minus's and choose what they feel will get the best performance, with reliability, and maintenance in mind. It seems this EFI thing is the last bastion for Montesa's owners to cling too....? I am not saying one is better than the other, who knows. How can anyone make statements, before the bike is even for sale, let alone riding one? For what is available to the customers, I still think the two strokes are still the ones setting the standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) All manufacturers have EFI available for their use if they choose. Do you think any manufacturer would immediately eliminate one type of system without first testing? and testing and testing? Every manufacturer also has another important factor to consider, and it could make their decisions before they even get to testing. Cost. Have you priced the fuel pump, throttle body and computer on a Montesa and compared it to the price of a carburetor? IIRC, it's about $2k on the Montesa. From everything we've seen, the Beta 4t is already going to be very expensive. How much more do you think they could charge for it? And, riddle me this, Batman, if the carburetor is a superior system, why would Honda go to the expense and complication of EFI on the 4RT? I might be alone on this, but I'd take Honda's technical and R&D department when it comes to four-stroke engine technology and development. Edited November 28, 2006 by MalibuDon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 sideup Posted Today, 05:06 PM Sirhc, As I said owning one does not make you an expert (specialist) in fuel delivery. I don't think I need to be an expert on fuel delivery to know it is better. I am no suspension expert but I know single shock is better, I'm no brake expert but I know disc brakes are better. I'm sure if the Internet was around in the 80's we would have been debating if trials bikes needed water cooling and all the problems of a water pump & hoses and all that, seems a little silly now, I think in a few years we will think the same thing about EFI. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut as knew I would end up in a debate like this and would come off like I don't like Betas, in fact I am a big fan of Beta I might be alone on this, but I'd take Honda's technical and R&D department when it comes to four-stroke engine technology and development. Your not alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideup Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) I'm with Kinell, Time will tell. COST: Of course you know OEM prices are different than retail. I owned a 4rt and agree it was a maintenance free dream as far as the EFI. Well thought out and fun to play with the different curves. And yes I did gear it down. I also spent some time on Ishy's Sherco 4t. Just different design thinking, good and bad with both. All I am saying is be a little open minded. I am sure EFI may see many improvements in the future that may prove out the best of all things. On the other hand it would be hard to find anyone who just had to tear his carb apart to clean jets at an event in the middle of a dirt pit call a carb superior to anything. I certainly never put the two words together and neither did Beta. Beta stated why they chose the Carb over the EFI. I don't remember cost being the factor. It maybe marketing, it may be how their data proved out from testing the bike. But it seems you don't believe it and have your mind made up already. Remember there are exceptions to everything. Sometimes, simpler the better. I hate to admit it but I haven't had my carb off my two stroke Beta in over 6 months, it running great. Heck all I have done is replace a lever, a chain guard, and a disc guard, talk about no maintenance in 9 months time. I heard of up coming tests coming up with top riders riding the new Beta. Let's see what they have to say. Next year at this time all these questions will have answers, and will be history. It will be snowing again and we will have to find something else to debate. What would happen if in a couple years a carbon fiber leaf spring swing arm was developed using two internal shock dampeners mounted to the arms that was lighter than the single spring system currently used. No way two shocks.....can't be good. Stay tuned Fantic 2008 perhaps? Ok, I've done my part to make this thread in the running for the longest one ever. Jack (owner of Honda Cars, Honda lawnmower 4 st motors, two-stroke Beta 270) (I'll never say no EFI or for that matter 4st, I've learned never say never, tough words to eat. Right Ron?) Edited November 28, 2006 by sideup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Beta stated why they chose the Carb over the EFI. I don't remember cost being the factor. As far as the credibility at Beta's press department goes, I'd love for you to comment on this: "The centre of gravity of the new REV 4T has been moved noticeably higher so as to offer the rider maximum handling feel for trials riding. The new overall weight distribution instils more confidence when negotiating obstacles." If that's the case, did Beta raise the center of gravity on the 2-stroke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dixie Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 here's my two peneth the beta is the doupters way out so many of the guys that slaged of the monty and the sherco now have a way out they have realised they where so wrong slagging fourstrokes and now really want one,cos they are starting to win big uk trials,this gives them a way to own one and still slag the other brands!!!!! nice one beta four beats is better than two?????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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