Observing At Classic Events

[twinshockdude]

I don`t see the problem here,if the regs say no stop then that is it.

instruct the observers that this is the case - end of problem !!!

or have i missed something?

[old trials fanatic]

In response to bikespaces question

"On the subject of stopping, hopping etc....... I'm just wondering, is it the general concensus of opinion that non stop is the way it should be?"

My view is for Classics yes and for twinshocks also yes. Let me explain why.

One of the many problems affecting trials is the lack of suitable land. I remember when the trick cyclists got their way before the end result was that the sections all became tighter and in some cases more dangerous due to the fact that more and more were hoping skipping and jumping their way through sections. The adoption of disc brakes then made the situation worse as these facilitated the "technique" and moved it to a higher level but that is another subject altogether that has been covered before.

If the hopping and jumping is allowed to continue and flount the "spirit" of the rules then the outcome will be even tighter sections along with more steps and drop offs. Some of the land in current use will no longer be suitable and the Classic series along with club events, which always eventually follow the lead set by the "premier" events, will go down the same route. Also the bikes will become more and more modified / trick to help facilitate the tricksters and the downhill spiral gathers momentum.

In effect we have a re run of what happened in the late 70's early 80's with the advent of the monoshock and the death of the twinshock and a lot of Classic Trials as we knew them.

Yes it is simple as Twinshockdude says just make it plain that it's NO STOP rules but that wont stop some trying it on as it's the only way they know how to ride and as Woodie says it's hard for an observer to give a five when the culprit has just recieved a round of applause for breaking the rules and cheating. Until someone has the bravery to dock them a FIVE and also if they argue EXCLUSION from the results. All the observer needs to do is report the transgression to the CofC after the event and the rider is excluded from the results. Wouldnt take long and they would soon learn or.

Alternatively just lay the section out so that there is absolutely no advantage or need to "bugger about" but still five and exclude if they do.

I know that some of the contributors think it doesnt matter but believe me it does. Classic Trials are not a second class version of "Modern" ones. They are much more than that. They are a return to what Trials were. A fun day out on your bike. Dont let them degenerate into just another "modern" trial but on old bikes. Remember theres nothing to stop you hopping and skipping your old bike to your hearts content just do it at the next "modern" trials NOT at the Classic NO STOP ones.

OK the rules of the ACU are clear but they, the ACU, do not seem to want to get involved and are doing a Pontious Pilot and leaving it to the Clubs to apply or not as they see fit.

Shame

Edited November 13, 2006 by Old trials fanatic

[bilco]

what are the rule's in section's at club level then on a twinshock.

Thing's have seemed to of changed a hell of alot since i left the sport in the 80's.

[old trials fanatic]

Whatever you can get away with

Actually depends on the Club and the Observer. Suppose as long as they mark everybody the same then swings and roundabouts but NON STOP is what it says on the tin. It's just that some are deciding to conviently "forget" that.

[bilco]

ok.

suppose your better of talking to the observer first to see how there seeing thing's before you enter the section.

[woody]

The problem with rule interpretation seems to stem from the type of bike being used instead of the actual event itself. Just because you're riding in an event on a twinshock or pre65 doesn't mean you are riding to the 'old-fashioned', 'traditional', 'old farts' or whatever description you care to use, rules of no stop - ie; a 5 for ceasing forward motion either feet up or down.

If you're riding one of said bikes in a modern trial, then the rules will be whatever that club employs, most likely to be stop allowed, hopping allowed (or whatever they are - I don't care) It's a modern trial so you can hop and dance your pre65 or twinshock around to your heart's content, even if there is a pre65 or twinshock class. Most unlikely you will get 2 sets of rules in operation at one trial. One seems to be causing enough confusion... (not meant as a jibe at anyone)

If it is a club classic event for pre65 and/or twinshock it is up to the club what rules they run. Most likely going to be tradtional no-stop.

If it is the National ACU Classic or the Sammy Miller series then the rules are most definitely the traditional no stop. Stopping and hopping definitely not in the spirit at all.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Woody

[paioli]

classic and sammy series run under TRADITIONAL NO STOP RULES not much to ask for is it !

we can quote chapter and verse from the rule book but it is NOT stopping this sort of riding taking

root in the classic championships , and by printing in large BLACK letters NO STOP TRIAL on the regs,

entry form, and final instructions at the start,must surely be the first step in keeping this modern form

of riding out of the classic seen. sort this problem out now before the classic trials become a circus for

the stop and hop entertainers and take the do i, don't i, give a clean, pressure off the observers and

the do i, don't i, make the section tighter, pressure off the clerks of the course.

I support the acu , i support the acu classic trials , i pay my way, i and many others want this SORTED!!!

i will NOT go away and hide.

[essex rider]

Im just wondering....

If moden bikes are riding at a classic championship round (e.g if club opens trial to modern bikes togain a greater entry) and there is an expert route, many of these riders will stop to gain balance before attempting a step etc so should this be a 5???

Also if there is a log (randomly) and the bike stops on its sump guard as the rider trys to get it off without putting their foot down is this a 5.

Sorry for questions as im starting twinshock trials soon and want to understand rules

[woody]

Modern bike in Classic - Yes they should get a 5 as it is no stop but there is always going to be a bit of leeway in the marking to take into account a momentary hesitation as opposed to a deliberate stop to regain balance/composure/line or whatever. Momentary stops are always going to happen on a modern bike as they have to be ridden on the clutch/brakes to go slowly. There's a difference between this and a deliberate stop.

If a rider sumps out whilst going over a log they've failed so it is a 5. Being stationary and rocking the bike to free it and carry on whilst feet-up is a 5 because the idea is to go over the log in one attempt. That's where the old anything goes rules were a joke - a rider could fail in their attempt to get over the log, hop the bike backwards off it and have another go, and another, and another until they got it right or fell off - usually the latter. Used to be like watching paint dry and seriously frustrating when you were waiting in a queue for your go whilst rider after rider performed this circus act and the queue got longer.

However, depends what you mean by starting twinshock trials. Just because you're on a twinshock doesn't mean you ride no-stop. Depends on the event - see my earlier post.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Woody

[essex rider]

Sorry i didnt make myself very clear...... What i mean is i need to understand the rules in case there is a no-stop event and im always stopping and hopping etc on my beta so its gonna be a bit of a change.

Oh yeah, went out on the beamish today AND i can hop on the back wheel going up a hill, shame the front brake doesnt work for endo's

[old trials fanatic]

Sorry i didnt make myself very clear...... What i mean is i need to understand the rules in case there is a no-stop event and im always stopping and hopping etc on my beta so its gonna be a bit of a change.

Oh yeah, went out on the beamish today AND i can hop on the back wheel going up a hill, shame the front brake doesnt work for endo's

Oh boy Point proven i think.

Woodie got it spot on. When in Rome etc. Classic trials that state clearly NON STOP should be ridden that way no if's but's arguements thats it period. If you want to prat about then take your twinshock pre65 etc to a trial that doesnt apply NON STOP rules.

Alternatively learn to ride the bloody thing. If in doubt just watch Dave Thorpe, Mick Andrews etc and see how it can and should be done.

[john collins]

I must admit I am getting a bit lost on this one.

The Classic and the Sammy Miller series run under No Stop rules. There is no debate. This is clearly in the Rules/Regs etc.

What some are saying is that the rule is not being applied with enough enthusiasm or dilligence - agreed.

Not agreed that riders in these evebnts do not know that they are running under No-Stop rules - they most certainly do. Each Club/Organiser produces thier own regs for each event - and once a rider enters he must acept that these are the rules he will be riding under.

I am sorry but I just cannot accept that riders do not know this.

In an earlier post I explained my view that the problem was that the Observers are often lenient in their interpretation of the rules - this is fact whether you like it or not - and will remain so.

So far OTF suggests the ACU are not interested in solving the problem - but he makes no suggestion of how he would do it - only that it needs to be done. He further comments that it amounts to leaving the Clubs to do as they feel best. Well of course it does - in the same way as the Clubs mark the sections, provide the officials, draw up regs and send them out, find observers and book the toilets - all part of running the event.

If there is a method by which the ACU ( and I have already explained that that is us - and the Clubs/Centres) should be making sure the No-Stop rule is implemented please let me know - but I mean an actual suggestion not an analysis of the problem - everyone already knows that.

Equally someone else wants it " sorted" - and this time the sugestion is to put up a notice telling the riders that it is a Non Stop Trial - and also print this boldly in the regs.

Yes we can ask Clubs to do this - I do fear they will wonder who they are emphasising this to - as if the riders are not aware of it I wonder why the hell they are entering these events. It is already in the rules, it is already emphasised in the Championship Conditions which each organiser receives and has to accept before being finally allocated a Championship round.

So the situation very definitely is: The riders know, the Organisers know, the Observers know.

Riders who stop far too often get away without a five. All this established.

What is now needed a a clear workable suggestion of how to make sure the Observers that the organiser struggles to find implement it better than at present ? This is the crux of the matter.

I am prepared to try to establish any sensible suggestions - when I hear them.

[paioli]

john i print all my classic/sammy entry forms from the acu web site its easy to do and saves me time

and phone calls,no were on this form does it say THIS IS A NO STOP TRIAL/SERIES, this could be inserted

underneath the ACU CLASSIC TRIALS SERIES title in the top right of the entry form, this would stand out

and easily be visible to the person who is filling in the entry form. i also printed off the supplementary bit

at the begining of the year,just looked at it and yes it does say half way down no stop permitted in the

SMALL PRINT this could be put into attention grabbing LARGE PRINT on all classic forms.i do think this is

a rider problem and they need to be better educated in what they can and CANNOT do in sections! and

let the observers observe how they see fit to !

clubs and observers should be made aware that no stop observing is what the MAJORITY of RIDERS want

and would support, as riders we have become aware of other riders flounting the no stop rule to take

advantage of the good nature of which classic trials are observed. just a simple reminder that if a rider

comes to a stop to either regain balance or to move the frount or rear of their motorcycle is penalized

5 marks, in a nutshell no trick riding , but by allmeans still give the benefit of the doubt to a genuine

attempt which is still a widely accepted and welcomed by other riders.

i would also like to thank all the classic/sammy round organizers and observers for another great year and

look forward to seeing them all again next year keep up the good work

and finaly to all you stop and hop merchants comming into the classic's

[essex rider]

Bloody hell Old Trials f***wit

I was only trying in a FIELD!

Did you ever see steve monk on his fantic?? he could hop it amazingly i just wanted to see how difficult it really is. I much prefer to see someone like john kendall ride his triumph through an intermediate section than a modern bike rider, it just looks so smooth.

Sorry if i contradicted the subject in the posts previously, I was just reading through and had a few questions

[bilco]

what get's me is all the marker's for diffrent classes there are these day's,you have to to stop and balance in the middle of it all to see where the hell you have to go next.

But that's another story i guess.