Novogar Clubmans Championship.

[scorpa3]

Following some discussion on another thread recently, concerning the severity of Clubmans championship rounds, are these events limited to one single route or can organising clubs include a non championship B route if they wish?

As is the case with many big events, the Colmore Cup suffers from the vast range of riders abilities. Whilst the top 10 or so find it a fairly pleasant ride around, there are a good number who find the going more of a challenge.

There are almost certainly a number of riders (genuine club level clubmen and ladies) who would also like to ride in these events but feel they are too hard.

Single lap road trials such as the Colmore are a lot of work for the organising club and might benefit from the increased financial income that a full entry would bring for a little additional work.

The Stratford-Upon-Avon club would seriously consider running a B route in next years Novogar Colmore Cup IF it is allowed?

Would it be a popular move if allowed?

[the addict]

Definately Pete, I can think of ten of us now who would enter a clubman routed Colmore and ten who wont be doing the Novogar route. Same goes for the Wallace, bit too nasty in places for the likes of me, Ralph etc but the old 2 route system was brillaint.We would get round ok but lots of marks and would nt really enjoy it.

The trial you set at Saintbury a couple of weeks ago was just right for me, challenging and a little a*** twitchy in places but every section ridable (apart form the log, section 1, which I may chop up with me chainsaw next time I drive past) and enjoyable. Have a feeling though most of the Colmore sections will be tougher than the hard ones at Saintbury. A great deal of us want a good challenge but dont want to risk injury and end up not enjoying an event because its way to hard.

There seems to be a growing gap between classes and routes these days, if you have to set a trial out to take marks off Thorpy, Baker etc etc its going to be way to hard for a club Expert rider or Clubman.

If you need more entries and up the Club coffers stick a toughish clubman route in, I am positive the entries will be over subscribed very quickly.

Pete, if allowed? is it not up to the club then? if so why not

May be wrong but was nt the Colmores entry last year about 40 odd?

Edited November 16, 2006 by Betarev3

[nigel dabster]

Absolutely not. it was originally the Clubmans series.

The ACU forum in 2005 clearly defined the novogars as suitable for centre experts, in the last few years they have been harder than they should have been. If they need a b route the a route is too hard, basically the likes of Dan Thorpe should be losing next to no marks at all which hasn't been the case. There is an over 40 class in this series and it would be better supported and could be very prestigious if the standard of this championship were set as it shou;d be. I rode the wallace last year and asked for one or two fives so that would be a good benchmark, ie something that is rideable for the majority, think neonsuge did a few of them too he may be able to comment better.

[timp]

This series is in a catch 22 position. Its too easy for the good lads and its too hard for the majority of clubman route riders. It also seems to have problems with who is eligible to ride it. Some very good experts are ok some are not.

I can't see a problem with having an easy route as well if the idea of the series is for it to be suitable for "centre experts". That level is beyond most riders. I would support an easy route.

One way round the problem may be to run a "open to centre" trial on the same sections at the same time but using yellow/white flags with a separate entry list and results. I have seen this done at a national before now.

One route =70 riders=not a lot of income

Two routes=130 riders=a good income for the club

Doesn't take a lot of thinking about.

[bikespace]

Top 5 riders lost under 10 marks at ours this year (The Mid Wales Novogar in September), but still we can only manage around 60 entries, despite putting the regs about all over the place, over advertising on TC, plus the usual in TMX and a special mention.

The standard was round about the same last year. We have no stupid steps which tend to separate the injured clubmen from the stars, just good solid stream sections for most of the day.

We're blessed with some lovely trials land. ideal for a Novogar trial, but still we can't manage a decent entry - which i would like to see nearer the 100 mark.

Although the name is Mid-Wales, we're 20 miles from the English border, and central for North/South traveling.

Even though I realise a clubman B route may attract extra riders, I'd rather not go down that route. The main route will inevitably get harder and get out of reach for more riders, I think diluting the Novogar series.

I can get round the Colmore without dying, maybe missing the odd section, same with the Wallace - If you have another course you wouldn't have to cater for the low to middle expert riders like me because we'd be expected to maybe drop to the lower route.

I think the way to do it is to try to standardise the levels of the Novogar, in the way that the ACU tried to do it last year. It had some effect and i think this needs to continue. The riders at my sort of level are reluctant to travel a few hundred miles for a trial which may kill them.

I'm not actually knocking your idea here as this is my outlook on it, but although i'd love to get some extra riders along I do think it could push the Novogar hard route to a 30-40 entry class for at least some of the trials, maybe especially the ones which don't have the mass of local experts.

Having said all that, I'm up for persuading and definitely not totally against the 2nd route as it may turn out to be the only viable option.

Edited November 17, 2006 by bikespace

[scorpa3]

Last year the Colmore was a stand alone National without the Novogar status, so perhaps this is not totally applicable but; Dan Thorpe was the winner on three marks lost, Sam Connor runner up on nine, Chris pearson third on 12 and Sam Haslam fourth on 14.

There were 61 entries riding one route, 40 sections, one lap with punch cards.

As stated previously in this thread, the sections were probably too hard for the average club Expert.

Just looking at the scores further down the finishing order you can draw your own conclusions.

Mark Hicken 40, Gary Jenkins 40, Colin Crease 54, Dean Basford 89, Barry Husband 92, Peter Archer 100, Katy Sunter 101. Non of this list are wobblers but there were some fairly large scores, but remember Dans won on three. Fifteen riders out of 61 starters dropped over 100.

I set out five sections this year, yes I accept that the five I set out were to hard.

Only the winner had five cleans, I took four off Connor, two from Pearson and five from Haslam. Not too bad you say! Look further down, nine riders fived evey one. Eight more had four fives and a three.

I can honestly say that setting out those five sections with one route took longer than setting out a three route club trial with 12 sections. It is far tougher for the Clerk of the Course to find rideable sections for the majority that will still give us a result.

Yes there must be consideration given to maintaining the corrrect severity for the Championhip route, certainly NO harder. It is the clubmans championship. But what harm would it be to put on a support route suitable for those bottom 15 or 20 riders that lost over 100?

It would be no problem to allocate entries appropriate to the status of the event. Be that 60/60 80/40 or what ever.

The clubs hard work might then be paid of by running a pestigious Novogar round with a full entry and a decent financial return.

This is just my view of the subject, not the necessarily Stratford Clubs but we are open to suggestions.

[john collins]

Certainly for 2007 the Novogar Trials are one route.

I leave you all to your opinions - as they all seem valid and sensible - and again 2008 can be looked at - and ( sorry) again it was on the table for the cancelled forum. ( By now I know you are all saying - Trials would hve been out of this world if the sodding forum had not been cancelled - abd next year I will probably have to book the Albert hall)

My opinion is very much same as Bikespaces - I feel that we have to accept that he Novogar - was the original MCN Clubmans Championship.

It is not designed for the better Expert riders - and we fear that the two route system will inevitable lead to a harder Expert course - and yes whilst possible a better Clubmans course - this will eventually be forgotten or become an add on - and just a make up numbers course.

What we are after - is a genuine series - not aimed at the good Experts but at the good and middle level Clubman.

If the Clerk of the course is aiming just to take marks off the top runners - Championshiop and Expert - we the T & E have made a mistake by giving that club a round.

It is absolutely pointless deciding on a series - and then letting each individual Organiser put their own interpretation on it - this is not the way to go . We stated all this clearly last year - and I think things started to turn in the right direction.

The Colmore I am sure will take this into account when organising Novogar this year - they surely could not be expected to last year when it was a normal National. This is actually another point - there are lots of good Nationals - and they have the choice of one or two routes etc - they can and do run excellent events to cater for their participants.

The Novogar is a series - and the concept is laid down. The real answer for the Clubmen who wish to enjoy this Championship is to support the rounds that are clearly supporting you - rather than bowing to the pressure of a few individuals you are just looking for another " win".

[whatgearyouusing]

I would have to agree that the series is way beyond the average clubman rider.The rounds are being won by Experts!The problem is that there is such a vast difference in the level of ability of todays riders.There are suggestions on here to run a B route alongside the A route.I would agree that that would swell the numbers of riders entering but there would still be a huge difference in the ability of the riders.The Northern Experts run a Clubman route now.The clubman winner was on 6,last place man was on 114!How do you set out a route to please all the different levels of rider :wall:I rode the Wallace about 5 years ago and it was won by Sam Connor on 50odd!I know that both he and Dan Thorpe asked for some fives on that day.What chance have the rest of us got?Admittedly it did rain the whole day but the sections in the arena/quarry were most definitely not set out for Clubman riders.I havent entered since. May i suggest that Trial organisers have a look at the Jack Wood national.A good hard but sensible trial with the top lads losing a few,others losing over a hundred.However the 150 entry limit is full year after year whether its got Novogar status or not.

[bikespace]

Its a difficult one, and may depend on the land you've got available. I know we can create a trial that caters for the majority of centre clubmen. We have done it fo rthe last two years, but that's partly because of the perfect streams we have.

These are our thoughts on it:

We have about three or four sections out of 40 which are designed to grab some marks of the top 5 riders. The others they need to concentrate or they can easily drop the odd few marks throughout the day.

For the middle of the entry this creates 3 or 4 sections where they will need a real good ride to get less than a three (but we don't do ten foot splats), and some of them will inevitably five them. Most of the rest of the sections are cleanable with a good ride, but there will usually be some point where you could easily mess it up. On a good day I'm at best an average expert in our centre, and I go round on 40 or 50.

For the lower part of the entry - who may be either lower experts, but more likely good inters or even very strong novices, they're likely to be looking at most sections as keeping the marks away from being 5's and aiming to dip below the three's.

For fairly fit (or hardy) riders of this ability, they usually have a really good day out.

We're open to ideas/suggestions/comments for improving it, but at the moment, we're fairly happy we've got the right level. I think we're just suffering from the fact that:

1. The event only started two years ago so has no historic prestige - we need to spread the word

2. We don't have a mass of local experts/inters to boost the entry

One other problem - There have been some monster Novogars over the last few years especially a couple of years ago. I know that due to some of these some people hear Novogar and knock it off their list.

I do mean the bit about the ideas/suggestions. I won't take it as criticism and we need to take all views in to account when trying to incorporate your views, but for those riders who've ridden ours, please feel free to comment.

[john collins]

Yes I think you are right. The Novogar needs to reflect the popoular Natiopnals that the Clubmen are entering - and more importantly enjoying.

The Wallace was actually one which I think made a concerted effort to get back to the intended concept.

I know my son rode - and he is of Clubman standard and enjoyed the event last year. He was certainly enthuisatic about it - as were the other lads from this area who also rode.

We did as a Committee look at the scores of last years rounds - and whikle we know this does not always give a 100% picyure, we did get the impression that things were moving in correct direction and this was reason we decided that for 2007 we would not be messing about with the format

[paioli]

surely the british expert championship riders are the support riders for the novogar series and in trying

to look after the few your making it to hard for the majority, look after the clubman first then if need be

lay out a few sections with diffrent routes for these guys, take the pressure of the clerks of the course

so they can organize for the clubman who the series is for in the first place, and two or three sections

with devations for the support class.

just a though .

[timp]

I think the "clubmans championship" would be better run on the clubman route with a hard route option available for the clubs who want to cater for the top riders.

So rather than introduce a easy route to the present format you are adding a hard route on some sections.

The other option is for the clubs to not take part in the series if they want to have a clubman route. They wouldn't be any worse off without it in many cases. The Yeadon & Guiseley round is way too hard for me as it is now so if run as a national on its own it could have a clubman route which I am sure would be full every year.

[speckled hen]

Surely the british expert championship riders are the support riders for the novogar series and in trying

to look after the few your making it to hard for the majority, look after the clubman first then if need be

lay out a few sections with diffrent routes for these guys, take the pressure of the clerks of the course

so they can organize for the clubman who the series is for in the first place, and two or three sections

with devations for the support class.

just a though .

Spot on Paoli-surely we need to have some more discipline about who rides the Novogars because right now for certain riders its like a club expert riding the inter or novice route-it wouldn't be allowed at a club trial but it is at National level. In my humble opinion the British Championship is for the countrys best 12 or so riders, the Expert class caters for the next best 30 and from then on the Novogars cater for everyone else but no-one should be allowed to run in more than one championship at a time so it would take the top guys out of the Novogar and let the lesser lights have a chance of being front runners whilst making it an easier task for organisers to plot sensible sections for the majority. With regular Nationals it would stay as now and anyone could enter so not restricting the top guys. I certainly think when some average ability riders see well known aces entered for Novogars it puts them off entering as they automatically assume the trial will be too hard for them.

[nigel dabster]

I would have to agree that the series is way beyond the average clubman rider.The rounds are being won by Experts!The problem is that there is such a vast difference in the level of ability of todays riders.There are suggestions on here to run a B route alongside the A route.I would agree that that would swell the numbers of riders entering but there would still be a huge difference in the ability of the riders.The Northern Experts run a Clubman route now.The clubman winner was on 6,last place man was on 114!How do you set out a route to please all the different levels of rider :wall:I rode the Wallace about 5 years ago and it was won by Sam Connor on 50odd!I know that both he and Dan Thorpe asked for some fives on that day.What chance have the rest of us got?Admittedly it did rain the whole day but the sections in the arena/quarry were most definitely not set out for Clubman riders.I havent entered since. May i suggest that Trial organisers have a look at the Jack Wood national.A good hard but sensible trial with the top lads losing a few,others losing over a hundred.However the 150 entry limit is full year after year whether its got Novogar status or not.

The wallace last year was spot on, connor lost less than ten

I think the "clubmans championship" would be better run on the clubman route with a hard route option available for the clubs who want to cater for the top riders.

So rather than introduce a easy route to the present format you are adding a hard route on some sections.

The other option is for the clubs to not take part in the series if they want to have a clubman route. They wouldn't be any worse off without it in many cases. The Yeadon & Guiseley round is way too hard for me as it is now so if run as a national on its own it could have a clubman route which I am sure would be full every year.

It is not a clubmans championship, the name is not right as everyones idea of a clubman event is different. The Novogars are easier nationals, Timp you have the experts championship and every other national the novogars are for the others.

If yeardons round is too hard it won't be part of the novogars the following year, is what JC is saying?

[gasserman]

i thought the novogar was for riders who did not come in the top 10 of the british championship if thats rite why are peasron dan conner and so on doing the rounds. it says from the acu the sections should be laid out to suit clubman type riders conner dan haslam aint clubman

Edited November 17, 2006 by Gasserman