Do We Want To Be World Contenders?

[alan bechard]

There are numerous threads and discussions, even a couple of treds, about US world contenders, it seems to be a fairly constant thought / goal and most here seem to feel it is an admirable goal.

I was reading through I believe last months Trials Comp though, and came across something that struck me as very interesting, and I believe an astute and accurate insight.

The article was written by Mario Candelone who I am certain has seen more world level riders then I will ever see, this is the gentleman that produces those incredible coffee table books on trials, and I would imagine he is the primary overseas contributor to Trials Comp. I do not believe he has a vested interest in any particular rider or country or brand, so I believe that makes his commentary uniquely unbiased and believable.

I apologize that I do not have the direct quote, but the essense was that even though the US guys finished somewhere about 9th, their end result did not truly reflect their riding ability and thier effort, but more their unwillingness to do things like alter the sections and argue with the observors. Basicly, our guys were what we would call good sportsmen, and that cost them.

The thought that comes to my mind, and we each look at things from a different perspective (mine happens to be often as a father thinking what I would like to see for or from my children) would I be willing to have my kids be known as bad sports and winners, or good sports and mid pack riders.

And the more I think about it, the more I believe for us, it is much more important to be good sports, positive people out having fun, then too be the "champ" and that if I have to trade my sportsmanship to be the "champ" I would rather not be it.

Maybe that means I just dont have what it takes to turn my kids into riding champs, and too be honest, if I thought they had to be unsportsmanlike, argue with observers, and do things I consider cheating (such as moving rocks) I think I would just sell the bikes and quit. Fortunately, I think there is an awful lot of room in the trials community for folks that want to go out, have a good time with their freinds, play the game by the rules, and go home with a smile on their face at the end of a good weekend.

And Tony, if you are reading this, I still chuckle about when that ribbon somehow got beside my calf while I was spotting and you were observing and you said, Nice move DAAAAAAD.....

[cota kid]

Sound like he was being diplomatic.

Do you honestly believe America is not performing in trials because they are good sports.

Your having a laugh! Its because you haven't got any outstanding riders.

[bilco]

Going home with pride is worth a hell of alot more than going home with a trophy you cheated to win,well that's what i was allway's taught.no tear's ever passed my eye's when i lost and i lost alot.

[steve]

Perhaps the US riders were losing a small amount through not arguing etc... could be the difference between 9th or 8th place perhaps. I have worked for riders competing in WTC and know how much of that goes on. However it tends to be only the top 5 that know 1 mark can be the difference between winning and losing. Often the observers are intimidated by the big boys and their teams and they do tend to get marked differently.

If a US rider was tied 1st with 1 section to go and a bad descision went their way do you think they would still smile nicely at the observer and say "no hard feelings, you have a tricky job and I respect any descision you make"

[cota kid]

I do not think anyone has mentioned cheating to win have they? There is a certain amount of rule bending, gardening or gamesmanship in trials and the odd moaning at Observers but no more than that and I cannot recall ever seeing blatant cheating.

If American trials is devoid of gardening, arguing with observers or gamesmanship etc then I salute you!

Does anyone know of any instances when someone has cheated and won and is prepared to name and shame.

[bilco]

Good subject.

I was walking a section behind a father and son,the son pulled the marker out the ground and placed it further out,the dad spotted this and said what do you think your doing to the son,he replied i dont want to go over that log,the only good thing that came out of that is the dad making him put it back.would that be seen as landscape gardening,i know thing's do get dislodged by the bike sometime's which mean's that part of the section would be diffrent to ride next time round.but moving thing's youself that can't be part of the game surely.

[steve]

I do not think anyone has mentioned cheating to win have they? There is a certain amount of rule bending, gardening or gamesmanship in trials and the odd moaning at Observers but no more than that and I cannot recall ever seeing blatant cheating.

If American trials is devoid of gardening, arguing with observers or gamesmanship etc then I salute you!

Does anyone know of any instances when someone has cheated and won and is prepared to name and shame.

I have seen a few extrodinary things.

E.G. Whilst at a European championship round in Spain we witnessed a Spanish rider take a 5 then a 2 in the last group on the final lap. Whilst checking my riders scores I also noted the observer had put the scores on his sheet correctly. Whilst waiting by the scoreboard we were already celebrating a well earned podium when the Spanish riders name was slotted into the top 3 (knocking us off the podium) His last lap score - 2 Marks !!!!!

Hawkstone Park - Bruno Cammozzi knoked a peg clean out the ground but carries on to the top footing all the way. Observer 5's him. Bruno gets off his bike, argues and then pushes the observer to the ground rolling him down the hill. Bruno then puts in an appeal which the ACU turned down. So he goes higher and appeals to the FIM who's top guy on the day was French. Result - Bruno awarded a 1 !!!!! Bye the way, the observer was my Dad and there was about 400 people lining the section who all jeered and boo'd Bruno for his behaviour.

So is that a bit of gamesmanship then?

[nigel dabster]

I think that reading between the lines are you saying all europeans cheat?

This is not the case and in the real world rarely are scores changed or benifits given to anyone other than home riders at home events, and then that never seems to apply in Britain and not that often abroad either.

Having followed Alexz all year I think he and his minder complained about a score once or twice and got nowhere, they benefited from slack marking maybe once or twice so it evened itself out over the year.

Bernie came here, rode well, had good back up and won the world championship

[mich lin]

Being honest, I've seen a ton of cheating, gamesmanship and bad calls in my time. That's why I believe we need a core of professional observers for the World Championship.

That being said, We need some honest, tough and fair officals if we ever hope that this sport will make it on a grander level. Professional riders, teams and minders will always push the limits with sportsmen observers. In my view, every world round section needs to be staffed by at least one Professional FIM observer, then his back up can be the local clubmen.

[malibudon]

Whether you have professional observers or not, people will always be dissatisfied with officiating, no matter what the sport.

When trials can afford (and requires) professional obsrevers, we'll get them.

[motojojo]

First off not all American's are clean alot of us groom the sections but for the most part we don't take buckets on the loop to clean the rocks with water like the top riders did in Tenn. this year. What ever they can get away with they will. If we the US had a #3 rider he would do much of the same, but we don't so this whole tread needs to be deleted and start again.

[copemech]

Trials is certainly an imperfect sport as scoring goes, professional or not! And a lot of the grooming of the sections may be for the sake of safety as far as the WTC guys go!

If I am not mistaken, the rules (basically) state that the observer must see the dab(actual contact) as well!

Many times this is not physically possible! Benefit of doubt goes to rider! Unless you are a hardass!

What then, should the rider volunteer points?

Point being what?

As a good sportsman, I try to own up and tell the truth if asked, I will admit that sometimes that is hard to do. But RULES are RULES and I have seen both sides! And I have also seen the reversal of roles when the kids were intimidated by the observers and their poor calls on a questionable situation.

The PROS get good and bad calls as well, so should you take advantage of a good one? I for one happen to believe that for the most part they are a well diciplined bunch with the current rules in place re- the observers decision. At least, (other than Laia) here they were, in the US. Spain, France or other countries may be different. But I feel much the same about the US national riders.

My thoughts,

[ishy]

First off not all American's are clean alot of us groom the sections but for the most part we don't take buckets on the loop to clean the rocks with water like the top riders did in Tenn. this year. What ever they can get away with they will. If we the US had a #3 rider he would do much of the same, but we don't so this whole tread needs to be deleted and start again.

This is a gem!! it's ok to move the rock, but not wash it

[cota kid]

I do not think anyone has mentioned cheating to win have they? There is a certain amount of rule bending, gardening or gamesmanship in trials and the odd moaning at Observers but no more than that and I cannot recall ever seeing blatant cheating.

If American trials is devoid of gardening, arguing with observers or gamesmanship etc then I salute you!

Does anyone know of any instances when someone has cheated and won and is prepared to name and shame.

I have seen a few extrodinary things.

E.G. Whilst at a European championship round in Spain we witnessed a Spanish rider take a 5 then a 2 in the last group on the final lap. Whilst checking my riders scores I also noted the observer had put the scores on his sheet correctly. Whilst waiting by the scoreboard we were already celebrating a well earned podium when the Spanish riders name was slotted into the top 3 (knocking us off the podium) His last lap score - 2 Marks !!!!!

Hawkstone Park - Bruno Cammozzi knoked a peg clean out the ground but carries on to the top footing all the way. Observer 5's him. Bruno gets off his bike, argues and then pushes the observer to the ground rolling him down the hill. Bruno then puts in an appeal which the ACU turned down. So he goes higher and appeals to the FIM who's top guy on the day was French. Result - Bruno awarded a 1 !!!!! Bye the way, the observer was my Dad and there was about 400 people lining the section who all jeered and boo'd Bruno for his behaviour.

So is that a bit of gamesmanship then?

Steve,

the Bruno Camomozzi one is very interesting. Definetely not gamesmanship. The bully should have been banned for years for that. Not even football would have tolerated that type of behaviour. The incidents, I believe, are still very rare in trials and I myself have not witnessed it to that level.

If he'd have done that to my Dad he would have would have had to have the section marker flag surgically removed.

Getting back on topic as a sport we do not face a severe problem with cheating and I would not say that any one nation or continent is any worse than an other. Although Taddy did get the run of the green in Poland this year.

[alan bechard]

It is funny too me, how folks can take what I CLEARLY wrote, then turn it around.

I did not say all European's cheat. (Dabster)

What I was making a Point of, and I thought fairly clearly, was,

If there is a need to cheat or be unsportsmanlike to win, I would rather not win (nor my kids).

Now as to whether it goes on or not,,,,,

Give me a break, there was one world level rider on here who told a story about having to ask the observer to help him get the rock off his chest he was carrying when he fell.

When I was observing the WR last year launch ramps kept magically appearing,,,, Must have been the Trials Fairies.

Is it an accepted part of the game, and will the competitors in the game push the rules to the edge and see how far they can go? Yes, I am probably as guilty as some.

But I found it an interesting observation from a fairly uninterested bystander. Was he being diplomatic? I am sure somewhat, but I am also sure he saw something that made him think of this.