old trials fanatic Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 (edited) Believe it or not i have been reading this thread with great interest so thanks for starting it Scrumpy Jack. I've been trying not to get involved but well you know me From my perspective what is the ACTUAL problem here if there is one? Why does a "modified" bike draw such consternation and create such a furore. 1. To a lot of people it is percieved as some form of unfair advantage some may call it cheating. But is it? Trials bikes have always been modified by their owners and we all look for that elusive edge. How many people who run so called standard bikes run gas shocks when they were not fitted as std? Sticky compound tyres when they were unheard of when the bike was made. the list goes on. 2. When does a "std" bike become a modified one? See above and my previous post. It's irrelevant unless there is a set of rules and regs that are APPLIED , thats the crux, and no one wants to be the poor sod that has to tell the rider he is inelegable for the class he has entered. 3. Would a "specials" class be beneficial to the sport? Depends on your definition of beneficial. Wether ridden on a non award basis or not the fact is that the sections WILL be made harder and harder to take marks off the riders. It happened in Pre65, it happens where air cooled monos have been allowed, it happens where National Trial winners enter Club Trials etc. It's a fact but does it benefit the sport? No! So on that count alone i have to be against the heavily modified bikes being ridden even on a non award basis. A lot of people have commented about the ridiculous situation in Pre65 and they are right. Even the ACU and Sammy Miller rounds cant agree on a unified form of rules for the bikes. That is why there needs to be a commonly accepted list of what is and what is not allowed. So we all know and are playing on a levelish playing field. Should the fact that a bike has fork gaiters make it ok whem the same bike with them removed makes it a "special" as in Yorks Classic? Yes the good rider will always beat the average one no matter how heavily modified the average riders bike is. Yes i love to look at a well engineered modified bike. I am not saying tie them to a tree and throw rotten fruit at them. Just that the place for a bike such as that is in a Modern Trial or at least a Modern Trial with a Twinshock route then at least the sections will not be modified to the detriment of the rider of a "std" twinshock. I would love to own Scrumpy Jacks Fantic but would feel "wrong" about riding it in my local Classic and Twinshock events. As some have said so more eloquently than me we have to look now at this or Twinshocks will go the way of Pre65 and the bikes that the class was created for will languish in the shed again or even worse be modified out of all recognition and lost forever. Heres a question for you that i have asked in my local Clubs and nobody seems to know. Remember in the late 60's all those Sachs engined Sprites and Saracens etc? what happened to them all? There were hundreds of them. They probably got put into sheds because they were uncompetitive. So how come nobody knows of one? How come you never see one now? How many people have also seen a Std Cub apart from in a book? The same could/will happen to Twinshocks well the std ones at least. Food for thought. Good luck with the auction Scrumpy Jack someone will be the proud owner of a very nice one off but will they realise the baggage that comes with it? Edited March 17, 2007 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 how about this for a framework for a set of rules std frame std swingarm std carb std yokes that ought to be easy to police onus been on the rider to provide evidence of std fitment should work for p65 and twinshocks can i go back to the shed now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blocky Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 (edited) Suppose I were to start from scratch and build myself a one off twinshock. I use all the moderm materials available to me. All the best bits i can find. But it has drum brakes front and back and an air cooled motor. The thing is its a one off... built from scratch BUT it IS a twinshock and was designed that way from the start. Am I cheating? and if so why? Edited March 17, 2007 by Blocky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrumpyjack Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hey Blocky,, you only have to look at Neil Gaunts bike for your answer... pre 65... hhhmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 how about this for a framework for a set of rulesstd frame std swingarm std carb std yokes that ought to be easy to police onus been on the rider to provide evidence of std fitment should work for p65 and twinshocks can i go back to the shed now.. Well I have just came out of the shed after finishing off my TLR250 - now its a 'cheat' bike since it no longer has the std swingingarm but a modified one from a TLR200. How would this fit in to your set of rules? Rules are rules ! I rode this bike for several years in 'normal' club trials - there was not a route for twinshock or P65 and I still am thinking about a disc front end purely for safety, running out of control down steep hills is not fun with useless Honda drum brakes is not fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottt Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 how about this for a framework for a set of rulesstd frame std swingarm std carb std yokes that ought to be easy to police onus been on the rider to provide evidence of std fitment should work for p65 and twinshocks can i go back to the shed now.. So modern forks and brakes would be ok then? This is the one thing that really seperates trial bikes, the brakes and suspension on a standard late 70's bike was just so much better than anything available in say 1963, just in the same way that the brakes and suspension on modern bikes is so much better than anything 15yrs ago. If i put my Ty engine in my Sherco frame, i would have a fairly reasonable bike that would (with a decent rider) beat a lot of people. Let people do what ever they want to everything else but leave the brakes and suspension as they were How would a Majesty work in the twinshock class? The first Majesty's were a TY with a modified frame, under those rules they wouldnt be allowed? Only later versions with the purpose built frame would be allowed? As most people in the 60's modified there bike themselves, taking a hacksaw to the frame was for most the first mod. The choice of aftermarket parts was just non existent then. How about: Standard suspension, brakes (new pad materials only), and a period carb? I'm sure many people in the 60's had tried putting a larger carb from a different model on. Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 The 'standard carb' idea won't work but perhaps a 'pre65 carb' ruling might be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 (edited) The 'standard carb' idea won't work but perhaps a 'pre65 carb' ruling might be better? If you mean a carb manufactured in 1964 or before then it's probably corroded away by now. Anyway we really ought to keep it on topic and talk Twinshock. The term "Twinshock" is as much the problem as anything else. Perhaps Pre 83 Twinshock would be better "for bikes manufactured before 1983 fitted with engine, brakes and suspension as originally specified by the manufacturer of that model bike." Seperate class for Pre 81 Spanish Twinshock machines for bikes manufactured before 1983 fitted with engine, brakes and suspension as originally specified by the manufacturer of that model bike. I do think that the term Twinshock on it's own is part of the problem. Edited March 17, 2007 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 but what p****s me off...............is the guys who were fettling the trick pre65/twinshocks ect ...ect of yesteryear/the 80's are the first to moan/cry 'take the bike home after one lap' co's someone has got something new/better more trick/lighter............sick...........stop........STOP.............thinking of welding fins on barrel of my 4rt.......................ooooooooh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Had To Speak up on this one ... If you all go look at the classes and rules at www.twinshock .org , I think you will see the founders of the organization (IMHO) got the classes and rules about perfect ! And speaking of specials , check out this month's bike of the month . It is a working work of ART , and is still withen the modern twinshock rules . Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Had To Speak up on this one ...If you all go look at the classes and rules at www.twinshock .org , I think you will see the founders of the organization (IMHO) got the classes and rules about perfect ! And speaking of specials , check out this month's bike of the month . It is a working work of ART , and is still withen the modern twinshock rules . Glenn You'd have to like polishing more than riding to own a bike like that...... it is very well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) And you could have a field day with those elegibility rules too. It really is a minefield which will only be sorted out once there is a machine scrutineer at every event who 1) knows what he is on about 2) has a spec sheet for the model concerned. look it aint gonna happen we all know that deep inside. I think like in Pre65 you just have to accept it that the people who can will modify when and where they can. Best you can hope for is the adoption of a "silouette" formula and outlaw obvious mods like discs and converted monos. If folks want to build that sort of bike then great it adds extra interest and why should you deny a person the chance to exibit his engineering skills / size of his wad? But the time has come for a specials class and any bike that is significantly modified from std will be classed as a special. If there are enough entries in that class then why not give them an award? they have paid their entry fees the same as the rest. My only concern is that the sections will be eventually laid out for those specials and as has happened in Pre65 the standard bikes will either have to be significantly modified or laid to rest which would be a shame as that is NOT why the idea of a Twinshock event was invented. How many Dinosaurs do you see nowadays? Well apart from me that is Edited March 18, 2007 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitley Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Intresting thread this one. On 23rd September 2007 i wll be running a road based twinshock trial, useing old wye valley traders sections so i have been concerned about classes. So the classes for our trial. Pre72 Twinshock. Pre77 Twinshock Pre 85 Twinshock Twinshock Specials(eg any twinshock fitted with discs. Twinshocked Air Cooled monos) Ride for no award. British Unit Twinshock (cubs, c15, b40 etc) British Pre Unit Twinshocks. There will be two routes, Expert and clubman. Straight forward sections Obsreved under TSR 22B no stop proper Trials rules! Regs will be availible shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Sounds like a well thought out and fun event. A class for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I think Pitleys hit the nail on the head!!! twinshock pre 1972 / pre 77 / pre 85 then a specials / modded class! after reading all of the above i still think drum brakes, frame of original manufacter BUT this should include seeleys/majestys/whitehawks etc as they WERE around at the time ,ie 79-85? as for bikes starting to look completly different from original as said previous the twinshocks are starting to take a different shape/form take a look at a majesty fitted with mono (drum brake!) front end! IMHO the bike starts to look like a hybrid with a shorter look from std with leading axle forks!!!! but that said! to there credit the bikes still fitted with a drum brake! im not against people modding there bikes(ive fitted larger footrests to my own bike! plus an alloy silencer) but start altering MAJOR parts and the bike starts to look completly different to when it first rolled out of the factory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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