Villiers 197cc Engine Help

[troutrader1]

Hello all,

I am in need of some help, before i burn the **#@! bike, I have a real ugly 197 Villiers "7E" maybe in a BSA d3 frame, just bought it and want to get it running. I have spark at the plug.. the plug seems to be getting wet from fuel but not drowning... but no real fire only coughs and the odd hiss out carb. Also it has a dellorto ub20s carby.

Anybody that wants to throw there hat in the ring is welcome and no idea would be consider silly.. Bike is in Australia and is my pre 65 project if it lives that long.

will be waiting "sleeping" at my keyboard till I get some ideas.. Timing setup? points? I dont know.

Thanks guys

Chris

[cadman]

Hello all,

I am in need of some help, before i burn the **#@! bike, I have a real ugly 197 Villiers "7E" maybe in a BSA d3 frame, just bought it and want to get it running. I have spark at the plug.. the plug seems to be getting wet from fuel but not drowning... but no real fire only coughs and the odd hiss out carb. Also it has a dellorto ub20s carby.

Anybody that wants to throw there hat in the ring is welcome and no idea would be consider silly.. Bike is in Australia and is my pre 65 project if it lives that long.

will be waiting "sleeping" at my keyboard till I get some ideas.. Timing setup? points? I dont know.

Thanks guys

Chris

I always learned you only need 3 things to make an engine (in reasonable mech cond) run, and those things need to happen at the right moment (timing).

So assuming you have compression, a spark & fuel getting in there. then I'd look at timing first. check that the points break (use a fancy powered screw driver or a cig paper for this one)

just before TDC (use a small probe in plug hole to determine this). Your not after any great accuracy here, the actual timing marks are better, your looking to see that you didn't put something back 90 or 180 deg out.

OTOH lots of fuel (assuming your using fresh stuff - tank & float bowl drained drained to remove water etc etc) in there might be a prob. ie to much fuel is killing the spark.

So on a new(ish) plug that is dry & sparks blue (not white) out of the bike, does just kicking over 1/2 doz times without throttle cause plug to be really wet?

yep -> chk float level, prob to high or needle/seat not shutting off -> remove float bowl & test if float shuts fuel off manually.

Might also see if you can fill the float bowl, then turn of the fuel tap. A bowl full should be enough to get it to fire & run a short period & of course it won't flood if fuel is off.

Ignition, ummm the condensers don't last forever & can cause spark to fail to spark, even though the spark is OK at plug when testing. They are cheap, try a new one.

No idea if any of above helps, but I've been where your at, & know one stupid oversight is a P.I.T.A. & seems so silly when you realise.

HTH some

$0.02.

[odgie]

Don't know much about two-strokes really, but seem to remember if they were stood a while the crank seals could harden up and cause problems? But maybe if it's getting fuel that means they are okay? Anyone know more than me...? (which isn't asking much.....!) :-)

[old trials fanatic]

Worth checking the condenser as well. I had exactly the same symptoms with a Bultaco Sherpa but a new condenser mounted under the tank cured it.

[dave dix]

The crankcases could be flooded and a few of the vnlliers had a drain plug but i cant remember on a 7E lump. Try heating the plug up then bump start it

Dave

[troutrader1]

Thanks very much info, will look at ideas.

does any one know if the mark on the crank for timing looks just like a chisel hit on the end and if so does this go to top or bottom with arrow on flywheel on top?

[peterb]

Hi there,

It's been years since I worked on these old Villiers, I were just a lad. I can't remember where the timimg mark lined up to, it used to look like an arrow I thought - or maybe a chisel mark then on the outside of the brass flywheel. The mark will either line up at the 12 or 3 O'Clock position, when the piston is at top dead centre, you'd be able to tell which is the correct position anyway, as the points should begin to open about 3mm BTDC which you can see through the flywheel cut outs.

The flywheel is held onto a tapered shaft, there is no locating keyway cut on these older motors and it was common for the flywheel to slip around on the shaft, upsetting the timing. Undoing the centre nut extracts the flywheel off the taper. Best to lap the flywheel onto the taper for a good non slip fit.

Make sure the points are at 15 thou and the condenser is ok.

The ign coil was never a strong point on these motors, there may be used ones on the older 98cc lawn mower motors that you may find in the papers that would fit if this was faulty.

Check where the HT lead enters the into the motor, it is held in so as to press against the HT coil contact area and used to be prone for making a poor connection.

I don't know the type of carb you have so can't comment.

As detailed above, the crankcase seals may need renewing.

Good luck with this, it's worth persevering.

Bye, PeterB.

[biffsgasgas]

Scroll down to timing on this website.

http://www.tanygraig.f9.co.uk/John/vil2strokes.htm

The points on my fathers had continuity when they were open. This caused intermitent spark issues and low secondary voltage. We still had spark but it was weak and intermitent.

The other thing i had happen on an anglian in an event about a month ago was that the head nuts were loose and i had compression when cold but none when hot. Its silly but just a thought. Check the head bolt torque.

If it is good verify that the piston has not burnt out on the exhaust port. Piston port engines have been known to do that especially when running lean. There is no head gasket on most villiers engines so it is a simple pull and look thing.

--Biff

[peterb]

Hi Biff,

Thanks for the thread on the Villiers stuff. Sorts out the timing.

It's written in "proper" old 1950's English, when people used to have the time to write in such great detail. And you could buy a genuine Villiers points spanner for thruppence.

Had a lot of fun and learning with those old 8E, 9E and 32A motors from about 10 years old onwards, riding on my friends farm in the North of England. Not a great deal of power though.

Has your Anglian got cerianis or those really heavy leading link forks?

Bye, PeterB.

[biffsgasgas]

The bikes are acutally my fathers. He has four greeves and two of them are anglians.

All of his four are earls leading link suspension. Honestly I ride mostly modern trials but the leading link is not that bad. The greeves seems to work well with the geometry of it. Here is a couple of pictures of me at mid ohio this year.

http://www.motolenzphotos.com/photos/midoh...ls/P7265263.JPG

http://www.motolenzphotos.com/photos/midoh...ls/P7265262.JPG

http://www.motolenzphotos.com/photos/midoh...ls/P7265264.JPG

Ignore the dab.... hahahahaha.

My dad is 75 years young and any opprotunity i have to ride with him no matter what bike it is i take.

Here he is at mid ohio as well. He rides all of the ahrma's he can. I only ride a few.

http://www.motolenzphotos.com/photos/midoh...ls/P7265289.JPG

--Biff

[peterb]

Neat photos Biff,

You can see the difference in styles, finger on the clutch lever. I do the same on my B40, but know that it just doesn't look right. Can't help it. Probably why the plates had started to slip, never used to use the clutch too much in the older times I reckon. On your Dad's photo, it looks like the rocks have knocked his left foot off the peg! Bikes are looking good. A friend used to have an Anglian in the early 70's when we were riding Bultaco's and Ossas, I always thought they felt real heavy and lacked a bit of zip when compared to the Spanish bikes.

Ta ta, PeterB.

[biffsgasgas]

Neat photos Biff,

You can see the difference in styles, finger on the clutch lever. I do the same on my B40, but know that it just doesn't look right. Can't help it. Probably why the plates had started to slip, never used to use the clutch too much in the older times I reckon. On your Dad's photo, it looks like the rocks have knocked his left foot off the peg! Bikes are looking good. A friend used to have an Anglian in the early 70's when we were riding Bultaco's and Ossas, I always thought they felt real heavy and lacked a bit of zip when compared to the Spanish bikes.

Ta ta, PeterB.

My dad went to these because they are still relatively light and not as popular as the cub... Kinda that rare thing going on. Yeah i can clutch and flip turn the greeves which doesnt look right but it gets the cheers with the crowd. Again they turn sharp but do feel a bit more front heavy. That Villiers has such a long stroke that it does not seem as zippy your correct.

--biff