scorpa3 Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Thanks for the reply John. I understand that you don't know the full facts of the case which spurred me to raise the issue, however my question was only prompted by the report in the paper and not directed at any particular case. The details are not important to my question, I was merely wondering if anyone thought that it was fair to be faced with a possible fine when carrying out a volunteer task? We know the rules, they are clearly laid down and we agree to them; so we can't complain. But does that make it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Right this is a very complex issue and a) I know everyone involved on both sides, I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 So what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 (edited) simply put during a hailstorm (on an otherwise sunny day), the last race was red flagged (everyone is happy up to this point), then the disagreement start, and I'll just say "no comment" Edited August 28, 2007 by rabie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 For christ sake what happened is it such a big secret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Rabie...........your gonna make a great politician mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezza Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 The 2nd MX1 race was red flagged after about 5 laps as a few riders went down in a freak hail storm and medical staff were stretched to the limit. No points were awarded for the positions held at the point the race was stopped (more than 3 laps but less than 50% of race time) and the race was not restarted. If the race had gone over 50% of the race time the results would have stood. The race could have been re run at the discretion of the CofC. It wasn't. This had a knock on effect regarding championship standings. See rule 23 Motocross ACU handbook. I don't know the details of individual protests Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Right, thanks. So the officials were fined for what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezza Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Not entirely sure but something along the lines of the way the decision making was carried out, records of what was decided and why and by who, not re running the race after the storm had passed, declaring the winner although not running the correct amount of time for that to happen, stopping the race at the time they did in the first place. Some of the riders put in protests which starts the ball rolling as to exactly what happened and as you can imagine when sponsors and riders livelyhoods, manufacturers and individual championship standings are at stake, any enquiry needs to be thorough and decisions made at the time will be examined at length against the framework of the rule book. I assume some breachs of procedure were uncovered and fines were dished out for that but this is mere speculation on my part. Cue Rabie..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 For christ sake what happened is it such a big secret? because there is a lot more to it, that is not entirley pertinent to the big theroetical question at the start of this thread Rabie...........your gonna make a great politician mate and thats probably the only reaosn i won the Pinhard prize (well it wasn't for my trials riding!) The 2nd MX1 race was red flagged after about 5 laps as a few riders went down in a freak hail storm and medical staff were stretched to the limit. No points were awarded for the positions held at the point the race was stopped (more than 3 laps but less than 50% of race time) and the race was not restarted. If the race had gone over 50% of the race time the results would have stood. The race could have been re run at the discretion of the CofC. It wasn't. This had a knock on effect regarding championship standings. See rule 23 Motocross ACU handbook. I don't know the details of individual protests firslty cross reference not only rule 23 of the MX rules, but the National Sporting Code and the Maxxis British Motocross Championship standing regulations. Even with all three bit sof papare in fornt of you its slightly confusing. Yes you can construct a legal explanation to tidy up what did happen, if you read all three bits of papaer but htat snot what happened (the mx race distnace bit, esp the e laps but less than 50% reads slightly diffrently to the maxxis) ... eventually what Jezza says (ie no points were awarded) did happen, but not at first. the "intial" action was to declare a result. to broadly sumerize, it turns out half race distnace hadn't elapessed leading for some "parties with intrests" to start to issue/threaten to issue protests / counter protest, etc. then some stuff happend which i really can't go into in public (no comment), then we eventually end up with the race (moto 2 of MX1) being scrapped and the resultant court of enquirey. Not entirely sure but something along the lines of the way the decision making was carried out, records of what was decided and why and by who, not re running the race after the storm had passed, declaring the winner although not running the correct amount of time for that to happen, stopping the race at the time they did in the first place.Some of the riders put in protests which starts the ball rolling as to exactly what happened and as you can imagine when sponsors and riders livelyhoods, manufacturers and individual championship standings are at stake, any enquiry needs to be thorough and decisions made at the time will be examined at length against the framework of the rule book. I assume some breachs of procedure were uncovered and fines were dished out for that but this is mere speculation on my part. Cue Rabie..................... no comment on the specifics, the results as i said in my first post, is the new ACU MX Manager has been tasked with rewriting the Maxxis rules and the MX rules so there is no scope for discrepancy and they fit exactly in the National Sporting Code. I think from a training point of view all FIM CofC's will have to have in addition to their FIM tickets, UK national tickets. Also the CofC seminars might now include role plays/case studies into protest procedure (esp items such as who is and who isn't eligible to protest, what subject matters can be protested, time frames for protest, etc) - at the end of the day MX, Trials and Enduros just doesn't really have protest like they do (every 5 minutes it seams) in Grasstrack and Road race - so our officials are understandably less experienced in these judicial matters compared to Road race and Grasstrack officials. As above there is a hell of a lot at stake - you only have to look at the arctics, the paid riders, mechanics, etc to realise the size of the budgets, bonuses, etc involved which mean throwing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Ok, I have read all the above regarding what is at stake with all the big sponsorship and riders positions etc etc , but what positive effect to the outcome has there been now the volunteers have been given fines? Nothing I doubt! I expect though that it has completely alienated the hundreds of people who give up there free time to do the job for no reward. Absolutely great decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted August 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Ok, I have read all the above regarding what is at stake with all the big sponsorship and riders positions etc etc , but what positive effect to the outcome has there been now the volunteers have been given fines? Nothing I doubt! I expect though that it has completely alienated the hundreds of people who give up there free time to do the job for no reward. Absolutely great decision. Yes; exactly my thoughts when I started the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Not being Clairvoyant I bow to your abitity to work out what the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 I'm trying desperately not to say too much a) yes if you've been on the course you should know the rules, if you write the rules you should also know them and if you say might forget, etc one would hope you would look them up I'm not really sure if you (ie joe public or the ACU members or even just as CofCs) are meant to decide who was right/wrong. the court of enquiry investigates the events (sort of like European investigating judges i think) and action follows from there. be glad you got a press release in TMX, as it doesn't normally either a) get out get any publicity the problem is, what this thread started off about and you rightly highlight, is how does it affect the normal CofC out there, and in my slightly cynical take on it, the court was thinking about that / the press release wasn't thinking about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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