big john Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 But nowhere in the regs does it say that the bikes have to be British only - just Pre65. Both Bultaco and Montesa had 175/200 trail bikes which were being adapted and used in trials well before '65, the Sherpa N and the Impala, Ossa may have had something too, not sure.However, this time, the bike will have C15 Yokes, forks and hopefully, a Bantam front wheel, so nothing contentious. Which is why I won't be bothering with a replica frame for the C15 as I know it won't be eligible, don't think they are worth the money anyway and weight aside which doesn't bother me, I think the C15 frame itself is good enough and handles very well, so no need for anything else. Hi Woody, Before I start, please don't take this personally, as I respect your postings on here. The Sherpa N was a trail bike produced by Bultaco, it was never a trials bike. It is simply a very lame excuse to ride a Bultaco in the Pre65 Scottish trial. We all know perfectly well that Tommy Ollerton rode a Bultaco in the SSDT before Sammy Miller did so in 1965, history records that quite well, photographic and otherwise. However, the whole spirit of Pre65 trialling was to bring out the old bikes to get them working and have some fun. It has developed into something quite different and what has been happening is the genuine stuff has slowly gone back into the sheds and outhouses from where they were parked up in and around 1967 when everyone had bought Bultos and then Montesas. You haven't seen an Ossa enter the Pre65 Scottish....yet! I predict it will happen maybe this year, the committee will have their eyes peeled no doubt. Should be easy to spot that one! The Ossa trials bike was not commercially available until around 1967. One mistake that relates to you Woody, your name went in the book this year? Oh dear...you'll have to play the waiting game then! That's a wee bit like bolting the barn door after the horse has bolted, isn't it? Didn't you take careful note of the supplimentary declaration of parts sheet which asks the competitor to declare the forks, frame, yolks etc. etc and their manufacturer and year? Onus is on the competitor! Basically what I am saying is this, the Pre65 Scottish is massively oversubcribed, it may not always be so, but for now the organisers can be "selective" and I personally feel they should select and prefer entries from genuine bikes first of all. That is what the spectators want to see. No offense if you are reading this Alan!, but Alan Whitton's preparations have their place, no doubt about it, but they simply ride like a modern bike, not a bike made before 1965. Cheers... Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Nope, can't say I disagree with anything you're saying here but I have no idea what the answer to the situation is. I have no idea what they were riding in Spain prior to 1965 in trials, if they were actually riding trials, but I still think that a period modified Sherpa N or Impala should be ok. Problem is that the bikes entered aren't. Someone told me there was an Ossa in this year's event as they asked me if I'd seen it. As regards my own fate, even with the illegal front end on my bike, it is still a mis-firing, twisted, uncompetitive peice of crap compared to the front runners' bikes. I'd hoped to have an eliigible front end fitted by the time the trial came around but just couldn't find the parts. I still haven't found C15 forks yet. Seeing as how everyone wants to junk them for more 'modern' items you'd think they were ten a penny, but each time a set appears on ebay some nutcase outbids me and pays a ridiculous price for them so I'm still looking. Have managed to get a Bantam hub and a set of yokes at least, so nearly there. I went in the notebook yes, and felt sick when it happened as I thought I was the only one as it was a clean page that he was writing on. Hopwever, he then showed me 2, maybe 3 other pages with many other rider's numbers on, so I wasn't the only one. I have no idea who he was, he wasn't Scottish, Geordie I think, can't remember now. I politely enquired what notes he had made about Neil Gaunt's bike or Mick Grant's. He replied he hadn't got around to them yet. In other words they weren't on the list and probably wouldn't be - you don't need to see their bikes to know they aren't Pre65... All I can do now is wait and hope. I haven't entred yet as I'm hoping to send a picture of the bike in with the entry form to show it complies - but I have to get the bloody forks first. There's a set on evilbay now so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) I still haven't found C15 forks yet. Seeing as how everyone wants to junk them for more 'modern' items you'd think they were ten a penny, but each time a set appears on ebay some nutcase outbids me and pays a ridiculous price for them so I'm still looking. Have managed to get a Bantam hub and a set of yokes at least, so nearly there.It wasn't me, honest! I have no idea who he was, he wasn't Scottish, Geordie I think, can't remember now. I politely enquired what notes he had made about Neil Gaunt's bike or Mick Grant's. He replied he hadn't got around to them yet. In other words they weren't on the list and probably wouldn't be - you don't need to see their bikes to know they aren't Pre65... I know exactly who the official was! As for the front runners, yes I know what you mean, Marzocchis welded to Norton sliders, very long progressive travel! All I can do now is wait and hope. I haven't entred yet as I'm hoping to send a picture of the bike in with the entry form to show it complies - but I have to get the bloody forks first. There's a set on evilbay now so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Don't worry I'm not betting on them, I have my eye on something very special at the moment, but it may cost me a pretty packet! Cheers Woody, Big John Edited October 4, 2007 by Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Hi all: Blai Jove rode an Ossa in the 2006 Scottish Pre-67, he was 85th. with 69 points (I beat him....). Blai is very closely related to the Ossa owners and he is actually working very close to trials, building shocks and producing all kind of oils for trials bikes. Being a Spanyard makes me quite close to our old trials bikes, specially with Bultaco that was generous enogh to put one of their bikes in my hands to ride for them when I was only 17 and 18. I really undesrtand and support using British bikes in the Pre-65, as the event was born with that idea. But I have a question about foreign bikes (and also about some British bikes), I will try to explain myself as good as possible in my English. I consider a prototype as a unique bike, this means that when it was built it was for shure an actual bike. I understand that any original prototype Ossa, Montesa, Bultaco, Jawa, Honda, Terrot, Motobecane..... is elegible with the actual regulations (if you can prove your bike is the one). But here is the problem, there are some bike that are "actual prototypes" with this I mean bikes that have been built up with any pre-65 frame, engine, hubs, jokes or whatsoever. Although you can say the bike is a pre-65, it is not really a trials bike that already existed then. To be or not to be Eligible?????? This is the big dilema, and a big headache for the commette I belive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beamish owners club Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Me thinks I stirred up a hornet's nest here! Very interesting and informative discussion fellas. The title of the posts does not really show others where this discussion has led which is a shame. I was/am looking for a custom frame for my B40. Very probably oil in the frame and definitely not eligible for the pre-65 but OK for club twinshock events and hopefully a thing of beauty! Armed with your good advice, I won't bin the forks on my C15 for Fantic ones and won't put a Montesa swing arm and rear wheel in it. I very much doubt that I will ever get to the Scottish pre-65 but I shall make sure my C15 would qualify. Back to the original matter, I am still looking for a 'dogs nuts' frame builder for my B40 project! Cheers, Jim P.S. Anyone know of an HT5 or HT3 for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Mick Mills may be worth trying.I believe he made a small batch of frames a couple of years ago.He may not have sold them all.As I recall they were about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 P.S. Anyone know of an HT5 or HT3 for sale? No, but there's a very nice Matchless on ebay at the moment just begging to be bought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Me thinks I stirred up a hornet's nest here! No, it's already well and truly stirred - you've just given it another prod.... To be honest, the whole Pre65 thing has got to a point where it can't go back now. Way too many modified bikes out there. I don't pretend to know what the answer is and I can see both sides of the arguments that are put forward - to modify or not to modify. I'm not against people modernising them but do think it is a farce when the extreme machines are still entered in the Pre65 class at say the Sammy Miller rounds, instead of in the specials class. Anyway, in terms of your own bike, whatever frame you eventually find to purchase, if you aren't intending to enter it in the Pre65 Scottish then I don't think you need worry about its design as in the Pre65 class at club events, I doubt it is going to bother anyone. Be interesting to see what you end up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 May I add my thoughts on this suject...................AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THIS......................You will find a number of genuine pre 65 trial bikes converted from road/trail/farm bikes all over europe that are more eligible than most of the british pre 65 bikes that are entered for the pre65 2 day Scotish. They range from BMW's NSU's JAWA MOTOBECANE DUCATI's FOLLIES PEUGEOT BULTACO MONTESA just to name a few, and I have a number of examples......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 May I add my thoughts on this suject...................AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THIS......................You will find a number of genuine pre 65 trial bikes converted from road/trail/farm bikes all over europe that are more eligible than most of the british pre 65 bikes that are entered for the pre65 2 day Scotish. They range from BMW's NSU's JAWA MOTOBECANE DUCATI's FOLLIES PEUGEOT BULTACO MONTESA just to name a few, and I have a number of examples......................... Which also goes to prove Stu that the British Pre-65 scene has got completely out of hand! Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Hi Guys, Hi STU. You are probably right about bikes from France, Spain, Germany etc, But to be honest would any of us Brits know what year these bikes were built or could date any of the parts.I don't think so. I must admit that the ones that I saw at the Manx Two Day, did mostly look the part, but without a skripted journal on each bike I would not know. And most seemed to be using brakes that would not be exaptable here (Twin leading shoe) I don't think so. We are still a brilliant back room engineering nation , and this shows with what we put together. But I dare say that this is at this moment being coppied by a company in China. So we can't win? with what ever we do. Just keep building class machinery, I'am sure we can ride them somewhere, ay John. Ps Try Paul Jackson for a C15 frame , he as built replica Triumph Cub frames. Regards Charlie. Edited October 12, 2007 by charlie prescott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 You are very much 'so right' big John and I would like to add 'I don't think there is any way back'....................but if its any consolation the twinshock lads have seen the pitfalls brought on by the pre 65's (not entirely the fault of the riders/builders) and have stayed away from, shall we say 'up dating' bikes............with a few exceptions...............as I am sure you know the Spanish twinshock classes cater for pre 72 pre 77 and twinshocks, I have always thought that the pre 65 only class was an error and (as in motocross) should include a pre 60's class and as for 'if continental bikes conform' has little bearing on the trials we have..............here you travel far and wide and its more of a reunion/get together .........ok p*** up ! We all know who the winners are going to be so lets 'admire the latest resturation', light the bbq and who's got a bottle opener...................? And if you want proof and wonderful hospitality get youself down to the 2 day trial (end of Oct) at Cabrianrs 60 kms north odf Barcelona, this the Mecca of twinshoch trials.........book a table at 'El Cafe' large helpings pork rabbit and bouden (black puddin to you big John) washed down strong Spanish wine.................. finish of with a stroll down to the 'house of ill..................................so who gives a **** about the fiddle forks in M***'s bike............................see you there..............................! Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Believe it or not but I had to forego an invite to ride Cabrianes this autumn from my friend Mr. Greeves! He had a very nice Bultaco available for me, but due to other committments, I couldn't make it, maybe next year. Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 You are very much 'so right' big John and I would like to add 'I don't think there is any way back'....................but if its any consolation the twinshock lads have seen the pitfalls brought on by the pre 65's (not entirely the fault of the riders/builders) and have stayed away from, shall we say 'up dating' bikes............with a few exceptions...............as I am sure you know the Spanish twinshock classes cater for pre 72 pre 77 and twinshocks, I have always thought that the pre 65 only class was an error and (as in motocross) should include a pre 60's class and as for 'if continental bikes conform' has little bearing on the trials we have..............here you travel far and wide and its more of a reunion/get together .........ok p*** up !We all know who the winners are going to be so lets 'admire the latest resturation', light the bbq and who's got a bottle opener...................? And if you want proof and wonderful hospitality get youself down to the 2 day trial (end of Oct) at Cabrianrs 60 kms north odf Barcelona, this the Mecca of twinshoch trials.........book a table at 'El Cafe' large helpings pork rabbit and bouden (black puddin to you big John) washed down strong Spanish wine.................. finish of with a stroll down to the 'house of ill..................................so who gives a **** about the fiddle forks in M***'s bike............................see you there..............................! Stu You know mate i think you've got it spot on. Light up the barbie and what the address of that house of ill ????? See ya in robregordo 2008 :0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Hi Guys Hi Pocket. If you are intrested in a replica BSA C15 T trials frame still. Check out what I have replied to the guys on subject,(What Qualifies for Pre-65 Trials?) And you will see there may be a chance of getting some made. Regards Charlie . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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