malibudon Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 As a sidenote on this thread, you know it is reported that the 4T Gasser will have the same F.I. system as the Honda.... Honda is selling its in-house EFI to Gas Gas? I doubt that, but I suppose anything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 copemech Posted Yesterday, 08:05 PM As a sidenote on this thread, you know it is reported that the 4T Gasser will have the same F.I. system as the Honda, and 350 or more cc that revs to 12,000 rpm or more! Should be fun! To WATCH! Might be fun to watch, but I won't stand too close Steve Fracy Sendus a pic of you on the bike. Well since you asked, I let my six year old daughter play with the camera in front of the shop looks better without me Playing with the bike some more I still haven't had it cough, stall or have any flat spots unless I try to get it to do it. I do plan on playing with the jetting a little though to see if it can come closer passing the Don test. (Ty has yet to stall it either and I can't keep him off it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 As a sidenote on this thread, you know it is reported that the 4T Gasser will have the same F.I. system as the Honda.... Honda is selling its in-house EFI to Gas Gas? I doubt that, but I suppose anything is possible. Could Gas Gas be taking Xispa's lead and ripping the design Bike looks good btw Look even better with EFI !! Then I would have one in the garage too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Purely speculation, yet i would venture a guess that the FI system is under license from Keihin or something similar. Adaptation to a different bike is all in the mapping and injector size within limits! They make money selling components! God help you if and when something does fail! Or you bash it! The $600 fuel tank(comes with pump) was an early turn off to me with the Mont. I'm sure they have gone up by now! Good one Chris! A REAL bike is good! Gives you a real sense of riding too! A good 4T is pure pleasure to ride! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Purely speculation, yet i would venture a guess that the FI system is under license from Keihin or something similar. Adaptation to a different bike is all in the mapping and injector size within limits! They make money selling components! God help you if and when something does fail! Or you bash it! The $600 fuel tank(comes with pump) was an early turn off to me with the Mont. I'm sure they have gone up by now! In this case, I think it's a Honda proprietary system. From Honda's website: "The single-cylinder, 250cc water-cooled engine comes equipped with electronic fuel injection (Honda Programmed Fuel Injection System, or PGM-FI) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 But all that's nice, I'm now enamored with throttle-by-wire after riding the new Aprilia Shiver 750 street bike. C'mon, Honda! Wow, Throttle by wire? What would the carb over EFI brigade make of that then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Wow, Throttle by wire? What would the carb over EFI brigade make of that then? Probably the same as phone sex, some times you just need the direct contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Wow, Throttle by wire? What would the carb over EFI brigade make of that then? Probably the same as phone sex, some times you just need the direct contact. Good job some peopple are happy to be just observers then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 But all that's nice, I'm now enamored with throttle-by-wire after riding the new Aprilia Shiver 750 street bike. C'mon, Honda! Wow, Throttle by wire? What would the carb over EFI brigade make of that then? It's be the same response as people who first disparaged linkage suspension, electronic ignition, water cooling, disc brakes, perimeter frames...at first they'll complain, then they'll embrace it as a must-have feature. The advantage to throttle-by-wire is not the elimination of the cable, as I'm sure you know. It's about the ability to personalize throttle response. You can make it as fast or slow as you prefer, as straight or progressive as you like. It is another great step forward in allowing us to make the bike work exactly as we want, so we can ride as well as possible. How many people map their own 4RT's? I get the distinct feeling that trials is still way way behind the technological development curve. The fact is the technology is there, and been there for ages. If the trials market wanted it, we would have had it long ago. The reality is that peeps are still happy to buy a brand new bike knowing they have to drill holes in the carb, and all the other things they do We don't seem to be a very demanding bunch of customers? Would I be correct in saying that all design enhancements we have seen on bikes since the 80's have come from manufacturers pushing new technology as opposed to trials riders demanding it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 But how technically advanced has a trials bike got to be to meet the requirements of the purpose for which it is intended? They've done fine up to now in their archaic state and not being at the cutting edge of technology keeps the bikes fairly basic and more importantly - cheap - you've only to read the other threads about the cost of trials bikes to see what the majority opnion is there - people want cheap not expensive bikes and more development and electronic wizardry will bump up the price. As for fly by wire throttle, I like the idea of being able to map the speed of the response of the throttle (although you can do that now with a slow/quick action throttle...) but I'm not sure if I'd have full trust in it. Electronics do play up occassionally, fact, and just imagine the consequences of one little blip sending a message to the EFI to snap the throttle wide open - just when the bike is approaching a serious drop off.... unlikely? - probably, but not impossible. And where does the electronic gadgetry finish. Once they get started, how long before grip sensors and traction control arrive on the scene, retractable spikes in the tyres at the flick of a switch for those really snottly sections, remotely adjustable tyre pressures from a switch on the handlebars, electronically controlled damping adjustment. I'm not against development but look what it has done to superbikes and motogp - success is more attributable to how good the electronics are on the bike now than the rider's right wrist. The racing is no longer as pure as it was a few years ago. Back to the original thread and as I said before, I've tried Jon Bliss' 320 Sherco and the motor is smoother on that than my 4RT was, it starts no problem hot or cold, grips very well and was very easy to ride - an 05 model sorted with some very minor but knowlegeable mods. Is the 4RT EFI more efficient - undoubtedly (even though I ran out of fuel 3 times on road events before reaching the fuel stops - twice in the SSDT...) But does that efficiency translate to better rideability on the bike - not in my opinion - not until they sort it so that when you close the throttle the bike ticks over a true trials bike speed - for me, a fundamental requirement of a trials bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 A very insightful post Woody! Any relation to Steve " Woody" Hole or just a coincedince?? First off, Ihave no axe to grind with Montesa's at all. They are very well built bikes. Just not my cup a tea for several reasons as has been discussed already. The whole EFI vs carb debate is so rediculous to me as I believe that 95% of us who actually buy bikes, have no real issue with the difference between carbs and EFI as far as making us better rider's. Most who read this website, myself included, have more technique issues, rather than technology issues, and I would dare to say that our level of riding would not change too much even if we were riding bikes of 10yr old technology! That being said, I absolutely love my Sherco 4T!!! I have never ridden or owned a 4T before this. It is light, powerful,and grips better than any other bike I have ever owned!! The fact that is has a prehistoric carb on it will not detract from the fact that it is fun to ride and I believe makes me a better rider!! Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) And I just spent too much time on that technology thread trying to say the same thing! Good job Steve! And Woody! Edited September 22, 2007 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 How many people map their own 4RT's? I get the distinct feeling that trials is still way way behind the technological development curve. The fact is the technology is there, and been there for ages. If the trials market wanted it, we would have had it long ago. The reality is that peeps are still happy to buy a brand new bike knowing they have to drill holes in the carb, and all the other things they do We don't seem to be a very demanding bunch of customers? Would I be correct in saying that all design enhancements we have seen on bikes since the 80's have come from manufacturers pushing new technology as opposed to trials riders demanding it? Right you are Atom. Many trials riders seem to acept the fact that their bikes are under-developed, un-finished our need re-working right out of the box. Why do we buy bike that have quality problems that would sink a MX bike or street bike??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 A very insightful post Woody! Any relation to Steve " Woody" Hole or just a coincedince?? First off, Ihave no axe to grind with Montesa's at all. They are very well built bikes. Just not my cup a tea for several reasons as has been discussed already. The whole EFI vs carb debate is so rediculous to me as I believe that 95% of us who actually buy bikes, have no real issue with the difference between carbs and EFI as far as making us better rider's. Most who read this website, myself included, have more technique issues, rather than technology issues, and I would dare to say that our level of riding would not change too much even if we were riding bikes of 10yr old technology!That being said, I absolutely love my Sherco 4T!!! I have never ridden or owned a 4T before this. It is light, powerful,and grips better than any other bike I have ever owned!! The fact that is has a prehistoric carb on it will not detract from the fact that it is fun to ride and I believe makes me a better rider!! Steve, I'm not sure I'm following your contradictory statements. You claim that a 10-year-old bike is as good as new for most of us. But, your Sherco 4T makes you a better rider. I can't say my '07 4RT makes me a better rider than my professionally maintained '98 315R, but I can tell you that I perform better in sections and practice on the 4RT. Given that, it seems the new technology trumps the old, as I'm the same guy I was a few months ago (only older). However, the 4RT does give me confidence to try more difficult obstacles. Much of that confidence comes from the reliability of power delivery that EFI offers, compared to a 4T with a carb (been there, coughed that). Does confidence = skill? There's an interesting discussion right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 Don't tell him the secrets Steve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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