The Sport Of Trials

[rabie]

That would be interesting - have a WTC over 6 days like the SSDT in a different place around the world each year. Only need to go to one place then and would be way cheaper. Lots more riders could attend and ride against the top boys. Possibly worth televising too . One week of intense world round excitement! That should do it!!

That was the original idea of the ISDT (now ISDE) but it evolved into a time trial as opposed to an observation trial.

Why didn't it work as an observation trial then ?

well it was meant to be (as i understand it), a bit of everyhting. so not only tough offorad terrrian (the trails side), but the tiem 9this was before enduros), but also road going, and they tradtioanlly have an MX type thing thrown in.

it really got to be an enduro event (and the rest of the world dosen't really do trials like they do enduro...)

[toofasttim]

That would be interesting - have a WTC over 6 days like the SSDT in a different place around the world each year. Only need to go to one place then and would be way cheaper. Lots more riders could attend and ride against the top boys. Possibly worth televising too . One week of intense world round excitement! That should do it!!

That was the original idea of the ISDT (now ISDE) but it evolved into a time trial as opposed to an observation trial.

Why didn't it work as an observation trial then ?

I don't think it was a case of not working as an observation trial, it just evolved into a time trial. To understand you really have to look at the roots of trials and enduros. Trials & enduros both evolved from the Scott trial (so did mx but that's another story). Whereas trials has always been recognized as a discipline in the UK this wasn't always the case on the continent. Indeed it's only since about 1965 that trials has been recognized on the continent as a discipline. Before that the concept of an observed trials was foreign to most of Europe so, because the ISDT was an international event the demand or requirement for observation died away and time (and *ahem* reliability) became the criterea.

An similar example (although not continental) would be the Welsh 2/3 (can't remember how many days it is now) enduro. It started as the Welsh 3 day trial and an alternative to the Scottish but has evolved into an enduro.

[atomant]

Thanks for that TFT.

It would be interesting to do a poll and see how many people would like to see the WTC change from what it is now, into something else.( but what would that be?) Or whether they just like it at it is?

[nigel dabster]

So what all these post are suggesting is that at the minute things at the top level of our sport is cr@ p....couldn't agree more.

What do we, the punters, want to see; easy more of our top riders at more trials that matter. A world championship that actually represents our sport not the circus we have at the minute a battle against all types of terrain not just a few huge steps to hit properly or jump over. Entries are dwindling, there are few sponsorship opportunities, there's little money in the sport, It costs a fortune to stage a world round in its current format, we all know these problems, it needs to change.

So despite the fact the the cycling world have made a complete c0ck of it, their concept of the Protour might be worth looking at. What it did was to take established events and turn them into a world championship unfortunately they screwed it but the concept is probably right.

Take the British Champs and take what used to be the BIG nationals, Colmore, Colonial, Cleveland, Jack Wood, Mitchell etc etc (there's loads more, you know the ones I mean) throw in the likes of the Ian Pollock and Loch Lomond Two Day, Manx Two Day, Lakes Two Day then add the Scottish and the Scott and you get a year long competition that covers every possible terrain in the UK. Don't change the format, don't alter the fact the every level of rider can compete but chuck in five extra killer sections for the big boys to have a crack at and see what that does British Champ entries.

If you expand that onto the world level, take likes of the Scott and SSDT in the UK, a biggy in the US and Canada, big trials in Spain, France etc etc etc and try to bring the Championship to the punters not take it further and further away from the sport as we know it already. It's only an idea but something has to give somewhere but something like that might give us a TRUE champion.

Obviously, I don't question the abilities of the top riders but what would Bou do in Fort William, a seven hour plus day over Rannoch would kill him. How would they handle a trial likes of the Scott?????? Just my tuppence worth

You are so wrong here, just as others have said Bou would win any trial in the world right now indoor or out.

Without a doubt he is the rider with the most ability and probably the one that trains the hardest practices the longest and tries the hardest. Did I mention the best team?

To suggest a test across a moor will leave him wanting is naieve in the extreme.

Similarily to suggest that reverting to an "old style" trial will magically restore the numbers to the British Champs is distorting the realities. Yes there will be more entries but these are riders who want to ride the colmore, like Dan Thorpe etc who don't ride the British Champs top route at present.

Where would that leave our up coming youngsters Wiggy Brown and Haslam? they have the British Champs as the remaining event to fim style and so on, there are lots of Nationals for the majority of competitors why make those events harder for them and take away a stepping stone for the rising stars?

The FIM and British Champs are two different things to lump them together only confuses the issues, I think

Is the FIM World trial Championship on its knees, no not at all.

Does it deal with the very best few in our sport over the most difficult terrain, yes.

Does it matter that there are only 20 odd entries, doesn't seem to worry F 1.

Give it a couple of years of established youth junior and full championships then it may well be a small but successful system showing the best.

Get the xtreme channel to show more of the youth events to youth and we may yet entice youngsters away from their screens.

Yes it is a different thing entirely to what we want to ride every week but does that mean its a circus? Is a circus not entertaing?

So to get back on track, to the thread, there is a problem with trials sales and we all need to somehow help promoting the sport and increasing numbers or we will be struggling in ten years time for events.

Let alone sponsorship. Yes it is difficult to afford to get to events but as Ross Alexz and others have shown its not impossible and if the results keep coming hopefully the support will follow. We are basically a minority amateur sport that tries its best in sometimes difficult cicumstances.

Changing the format of British events on to some distant moor will not attract TV money will it???????

Edited September 15, 2007 by Nigel Dabster

[slapshot 3]

How would they handle a trial likes of the Scott?????? Just my tuppence worth

Errr , who won it last year ? Clue Here

Yep fully aware of that but he's won it before and grew up on trials of this nature. Doug won the Scott and the SSDT in 1994 before he first won a WTC crown and WTC contracts prevented him riding and apart from that, no-one (including him if I remember the article I read properly) knew exactly how he would go after years of not riding the Scott. Had Jarvis not missed sections what would the result have been???

Oh yes the world champion wouldnt be fit enough to do the SSDT

Didn't say that, what I inferred is that trials like the Scott and the SSDT are much much more than just riding the sections, could all of the top boys handle that. Could they handle six days of moorland and roads "without" their minders and still throw out the cleans, no-one can say because they won't ride. Contracts notwithstanding, if some importance was placed on these events by the FIM, you can guarantee they would be there.

chances are he would probably clean it.

Well if he did it would be a first........

As someone else has noted, whatever scenario you have as a "Championship", the best riders will always come out on top because it's marks lost that count, that's fine but for heavens sake someone take it away from the neutered, sterility of huge steps and slabs and monster climbs that only a few riders can handle.

Most of us have slagged off the current format and the state of the sport but no-one has come up with a workable solution so we start with crass ideas and maybe, just maybe out of that comes something half sensible because the circus act we have now is doing nothing for the sport. Having something better might just change the fortunes as far as sales, money, sponsorship etc are concerned

Edited September 15, 2007 by Slapshot 3

[slapshot 3]

You are so wrong here

In your opinion... you have yours, I have mine, that's what freedom of speech is all about...

To suggest a test across a moor will leave him wanting is naieve in the extreme.

read my other post

I'm not going to argue your points Dabster, their your opinion, but what you infer is that the sport shouldn't change because it wouldn't suit a few riders, I'd suggest that the sport is more important and that the riders should be adapting to the sport. The best riders will still be the best riders whatever the format.

F1 is not a great analogy. What comparison is there with a sport whose annual turnover is in billions and where the size of the field is controlled by Ecclestone and his money men. You don't have the bucks and the guarantees you don't get in.

[baldilocks]

Years ago the Britsh Champioship was as slapshot is describing, big nationals like the cleveland, jack wood, colmore, wye valley traders etc. The point people seem to forget is that it wasnt working any longer in that format. I first rode these events in 86, by the time we got to 1991/92 the trials were way too hard for the bulk of the entry and the trial was being spoilt to cater for the top 5 - 10 riders.

as an example the Travers was a championship round in 1992, Rob Crawford won on about 30 and I remember Paul Rose commenting at the end it had been too hard and I think he was in the points. I lost 130 marks and finished 29th or 30th, i was way outside my comfort zone, i think i had a couple of cleans and the rest were 3's and 5's. Did I enjoy my day ? did the people who finished behind me enjoy their day ??

And the top riders wanted it harder still as the gap between this type of event and a world round was still too big.

enter the british champioship in its current format

If you think your going to mark out trials that will deal with the range of ability from my standard up to Graham Jarvis I think your only kidding yourself. Half of the expert class would probably not enjoy a day on the chamionship route where Jarvis is dropping 20 marks, what chance have those that find the expert course too much ?

who outside the current expert and championship class riders would enter anyway ??

[bilco]

So what all these post are suggesting is that at the minute things at the top level of our sport is cr@ p....couldn't agree more.

What do we, the punters, want to see; easy more of our top riders at more trials that matter. A world championship that actually represents our sport not the circus we have at the minute a battle against all types of terrain not just a few huge steps to hit properly or jump over. Entries are dwindling, there are few sponsorship opportunities, there's little money in the sport, It costs a fortune to stage a world round in its current format, we all know these problems, it needs to change.

So despite the fact the the cycling world have made a complete c0ck of it, their concept of the Protour might be worth looking at. What it did was to take established events and turn them into a world championship unfortunately they screwed it but the concept is probably right.

Take the British Champs and take what used to be the BIG nationals, Colmore, Colonial, Cleveland, Jack Wood, Mitchell etc etc (there's loads more, you know the ones I mean) throw in the likes of the Ian Pollock and Loch Lomond Two Day, Manx Two Day, Lakes Two Day then add the Scottish and the Scott and you get a year long competition that covers every possible terrain in the UK. Don't change the format, don't alter the fact the every level of rider can compete but chuck in five extra killer sections for the big boys to have a crack at and see what that does British Champ entries.

If you expand that onto the world level, take likes of the Scott and SSDT in the UK, a biggy in the US and Canada, big trials in Spain, France etc etc etc and try to bring the Championship to the punters not take it further and further away from the sport as we know it already. It's only an idea but something has to give somewhere but something like that might give us a TRUE champion.

Obviously, I don't question the abilities of the top riders but what would Bou do in Fort William, a seven hour plus day over Rannoch would kill him. How would they handle a trial likes of the Scott?????? Just my tuppence worth

Is a circus not entertaing?

Nope there Tacky.

And we still have a fantasy of being on TV,no chance.

[rosey]

Years ago the Britsh Champioship was as slapshot is describing, big nationals like the cleveland, jack wood, colmore, wye valley traders etc. The point people seem to forget is that it wasnt working any longer in that format. I first rode these events in 86, by the time we got to 1991/92 the trials were way too hard for the bulk of the entry and the trial was being spoilt to cater for the top 5 - 10 riders.

as an example the Travers was a championship round in 1992, Rob Crawford won on about 30 and I remember Paul Rose commenting at the end it had been too hard and I think he was in the points. I lost 130 marks and finished 29th or 30th, i was way outside my comfort zone, i think i had a couple of cleans and the rest were 3's and 5's. Did I enjoy my day ? did the people who finished behind me enjoy their day ??

And the top riders wanted it harder still as the gap between this type of event and a world round was still too big.

enter the british champioship in its current format

If you think your going to mark out trials that will deal with the range of ability from my standard up to Graham Jarvis I think your only kidding yourself. Half of the expert class would probably not enjoy a day on the chamionship route where Jarvis is dropping 20 marks, what chance have those that find the expert course too much ?

who outside the current expert and championship class riders would enter anyway ??

Bang on!

Actualy the trials would be harder for the top guys to win if they were easier...it won't help them when they have to compete at top level, but then it doesn't help the other experts does it when they are too hard.

Bloody hell what a memory! I rely on still having the results in a folder... 1st Crawford 26 7th Rosey 85! 15th place was 103 30th was 141 marks and the list of riders right down shows a competent centre expert level field! There wasn't thbig void in the late 80's even the early 90's but now it's a chasm...

The sport has done all it can to get on TV (arena trials etc), but the viewers are not bothered.

But.... if the Scott as WTC and the SSDT then that might put an end to minders?...riders having to fix their own bikes?... Oh I've been there before!

[gizza5]

Didn't say that, what I inferred is that trials like the Scott and the SSDT are much much more than just riding the sections, could all of the top boys handle that. Could they handle six days of moorland and roads "without" their minders and still throw out the cleans, no-one can say because they won't ride. Contracts notwithstanding, if some importance was placed on these events by the FIM, you can guarantee they would be there.

Too right Multi World Champion ''Eddy Lejune'' never won the SSDT , not sure Mr Bou would either if all the top riders were to ride it?

We were quite happy when Dougie moved the goal posts and took the WTC to another level and bagged 7 wins, now Bou and Raga seem to have a battle amongst themselves...........there seems to be a problem with the WTC.

Don't have the answer, whether to keep it as it is open only to the ''Elite'' at the very top of the sport, or open it up for more riders to compete.

Just a point if Tony Bou is going to walk away with the Championship in 2008 it will become quite boring for me very quickly and I will be more interested who is beating who in places 3 to 10.

Edited September 15, 2007 by GIZZA5

[atomant]

Thinking about this a little, I think we are discussing the WTC as it stands being the pinnacle of the sport and hence at the top of the pyramid. The problem of course is the foundations the pyramid is built on.

I think there is something that we can all agree on and that is there is a significant disconnect between WTC (as it is today) and the grass route trials.

You go and see a circus and look and marvel at the highwire act and think thats amazing - you dont for one second think Right ,I'm off to learn that - that is something I could do! .... Its like that with the WTC. The guys are sooooo skilled that they have taken it beyond mere mortals and therefore the term circus is used because the similarities are there. Because of this, as its the showpiece, new blood will not be tempted to by it, unless they are already top trials cycle riders for instance.

The other thing as well, is when you have seen one highwire act, you have seen them all.... and it tires after a while. The WTC pulls a loyal hardcore bunch of punters but thats it. How can it grow if it isn't attracting the right kind of people outside the hardcore.

One other thing talking about Dabster's opinion on the WTC -

Is the FIM World trial Championship on its knees, no not at all.

Does it deal with the very best few in our sport over the most difficult terrain, yes.

Does it matter that there are only 20 odd entries, doesn't seem to worry F 1.

Give it a couple of years of established youth junior and full championships then it may well be a small but successful system showing the best.

Yes yes yes thats all well and good - BUT WHO IS PAYING THE BILLS FOR ALL RIDERS OUTSIDE THE TOP 5!!

Get the xtreme channel to show more of the youth events to youth and we may yet entice youngsters away from their screens.

Interesting you should suggest the Xtreme channel as that supports what I am saying above! WTC has become a new discipline of motor sport. Its not trials as most people know it.

Remember that pyramid. Dodgy foundations and its all going to come crashing down!

Compare this to Golf, and I know (like most golfers) every now and then I hit a golf shot as good as Tiger Woods can hit it. To know that for a brief moment you can emulate a great is a real buzz. There is NO CHANCE that 99.99% of all trials riders could ever emulate Toni Bou.

[bilco]

Didn't say that, what I inferred is that trials like the Scott and the SSDT are much much more than just riding the sections, could all of the top boys handle that. Could they handle six days of moorland and roads "without" their minders and still throw out the cleans, no-one can say because they won't ride. Contracts notwithstanding, if some importance was placed on these events by the FIM, you can guarantee they would be there.

We were quite happy when Dougie moved the goal posts and took the WTC to another level and bagged 7 wins, now Bou and Raga seem to have a battle amongst themselves...........there seems to be a problem with the WTC.

Thats an interesting point,However i would of found it hard to get excited even if it was a Brit win.

I have very little interest in the WTC because it's so far away from what i do,Infact it's a completly diffrent sport to how i know it,by the sound's of thing's there's people thinking the same as me.

When it come's to the Scottish i enjoy following that from day to day and i expect many people do,the reason for that must be one of, thats how i ride so i can relate to it.

Edited September 15, 2007 by bilco

[neonsurge]

Look at it this way: If the WTC in its current form did collapse, would it really matter? OK, a few jobs would be lost which is never a good thing but the effect on national level trials and below would be precisely zero. Club trials would continue as they always have, the top guys would continue to be amateurs (in the literal sense - most of them are now anyway) and trialcentral.com would still exist and continue to grow. From a purely pragmatic perspective, the WTC is irrelevant. An anachronism.

TV coverage? Don't make me laugh. Put yourself in Joe Public's shoes - trials is BORING. Once the initial "wow" factor has gone, there's little to hold the casual observer's attention unless they invest the time to get into it. And considering that in order to do that it'd have to be possible to follow all of the top riders through every section there's no way any TV company would be willing to gamble the huge amount of money required to provide that level of coverage. In Yorkshire. In January. In wind and sleet :-)

[baldilocks]

I think people are right to dismiss getting proper Trials on TV, it just doesnt make good TV.

I went to the World Round in Andorra the other weekend, I had a great time and watched some utterly fantastic riders in action. Then last night I watched the highlights on eurosport, it was pants !

It may be the fault of eurosport but the gradient of the hazards and the general severity of the sections just isnt conveyed. We get impressed that they can balance a bike anywhere but on tv its just a guy standing still if your the man in the street.

The obstacles the top guys rode up and over were frightening, and wasnt all steps by the way. These people balance on a gradient i was having trouble standing on and then just calmly pull away. Try and balance your bike with both wheels facing uphill, its very difficult but TV doesnt and cant convey that.

I think neosurge is correct to say we should stop worrying about it, lets watch the WTC while we can even if only us trials people like it.

If it survives great if it doesn't then some of the issues may get resolved. I've said previously any factory directing all of their resources into one rider is wasting their time based on what I saw in Andorra. Bou is going to win, the rest are making up the numbers. But the factories may get better exposure out of having more riders in that huge truck which is transporting perhaps one or two bikes (honda excluded of course)

[nigel dabster]

You are so wrong here

In your opinion... you have yours, I have mine, that's what freedom of speech is all about...

To suggest a test across a moor will leave him wanting is naieve in the extreme.

read my other post

I'm not going to argue your points Dabster, their your opinion, but what you infer is that the sport shouldn't change because it wouldn't suit a few riders, I'd suggest that the sport is more important and that the riders should be adapting to the sport. The best riders will still be the best riders whatever the format.

F1 is not a great analogy. What comparison is there with a sport whose annual turnover is in billions and where the size of the field is controlled by Ecclestone and his money men. You don't have the bucks and the guarantees you don't get in.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with it, if you think you are right argue your point, surely?

I never said the sport shouldn't change just that change at wtc is not going to help the sponsorship prospects of the up coming riders at the top level. (again back to thread beginning)

To explain more, F1 manages with 20 competitors they don't need 100.