atomant Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 I was talking in the Sherco 4T forum and this topic come up. I thought it might make a good discussion topic so I dropped it in here. We started talking about throttle by wire as a possibility for a trials bike.. heres the comments .. But all that's nice, I'm now enamored with throttle-by-wire after riding the new Aprilia Shiver 750 street bike. C'mon, Honda! Wow, Throttle by wire? What would the carb over EFI brigade make of that then? It's be the same response as people who first disparaged linkage suspension, electronic ignition, water cooling, disc brakes, perimeter frames...at first they'll complain, then they'll embrace it as a must-have feature. The advantage to throttle-by-wire is not the elimination of the cable, as I'm sure you know. It's about the ability to personalize throttle response. You can make it as fast or slow as you prefer, as straight or progressive as you like. It is another great step forward in allowing us to make the bike work exactly as we want, so we can ride as well as possible. How many people map their own 4RT's? I get the distinct feeling that trials is still way way behind the technological development curve. The fact is the technology is there, and been there for ages. If the trials market wanted it, we would have had it long ago. The reality is that peeps are still happy to buy a brand new bike knowing they have to drill holes in the carb, and all the other things they do We don't seem to be a very demanding bunch of customers? Would I be correct in saying that all design enhancements we have seen on bikes since the 80's have come from manufacturers pushing new technology as opposed to trials riders demanding it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Due in part to the fact that a good rider on a 20 year old bike can still beat an average one on a new bike. And to some extent all trials bikes are - quite rightly- limited by the tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 How many people map their own 4RT's? I get the distinct feeling that trials is still way way behind the technological development curve. The fact is the technology is there, and been there for ages. If the trials market wanted it, we would have had it long ago. The reality is that peeps are still happy to buy a brand new bike knowing they have to drill holes in the carb, and all the other things they do We don't seem to be a very demanding bunch of customers?Would I be correct in saying that all design enhancements we have seen on bikes since the 80's have come from manufacturers pushing new technology as opposed to trials riders demanding it? I think more people would map their 4RTs if it were easier. If it could be done by Bluetooth from either a laptop or PDA, that would be awesome! As far an design enhancements, it depends. There are things we know about and want, then there are innovations we don't find out about until they appear. I remember wanting single-shock suspension (I bought replacement shocks for my Sherpa T in six-packs), disc brakes and water-cooling before they were available on trails bikes...the MX guys had all those things before us, and they worked! I wasn't asking for a hydraulic clutch, but I'm glad to have it. Fantic tried a power-valve two-stroke, but that didn't stick. When the four-strokes were coming, I was hoping for EFI and was very glad to get it. The advantages of throttle-by-wire didn't hit me until I rode a bike with that feature. Now I want it on my 4RT, as well as having it easy to modify. Are there any technological advances you'd like to return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 USD Forks, not that good in trials. Throttle by wire only with efi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 USD Forks, not that good in trials. Throttle by wire only with efi? I liked the USDs on my Beta Zero, but don't miss them on my Cota 315R and 4RT. That's a good catch. From a practical standpoint, you aren't likely to see throttle-by-wire with a carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Are there any technological advances you'd like to return? Good question! No, not really, but as you said, trials bike lag behind the rest of the industry probably down to money and the fact that the manufacturers would be unlikely to be too bold on something new as the damage it can do to sales and the brand is difficult to repair- Look what happens when they get it wrong (Sherco 4T 320 as an example) The Monoshock has got to be the best development ever for a trials bike? I cant think where the next ground breaking innovation is going to come from in trials. Throttle by wire would be an incremental step of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) Good question! No, not really, but as you said, trials bike lag behind the rest of the industry probably down to money and the fact that the manufacturers would be unlikely to be too bold on something new as the damage it can do to sales and the brand is difficult to repair- Look what happens when they get it wrong (Sherco 4T 320 as an example)The Monoshock has got to be the best development ever for a trials bike? I cant think where the next ground breaking innovation is going to come from in trials. Throttle by wire would be an incremental step of course. While we do typically lag, trials bikes did pave the way for both twin-spar aluminum frames and perimeter chromoly frames. And, of course, EFI. The monoshock was clearly huge, as was the advent of two-strokes in the '60s. Come to think of it, two-strokes really came to trials before motocross. Let's not underestimate disc brakes, however. Without the braking ability that comes with hydraulic discs, we would never have the spectacular tricks we have now. Can you imagine indoor sections without discs? Ultimately, disc brakes made the shift from no-stop to stop make sense. Edited September 22, 2007 by MalibuDon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibudon Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 Due in part to the fact that a good rider on a 20 year old bike can still beat an average one on a new bike. And to some extent all trials bikes are - quite rightly- limited by the tyres. Well, a good rider in virtually any motorcycle discipline will beat an average one if the superior rider is on a 20-year-old bike. But, a rider on a new bike will perform far better than he would on a 20-year-old machine. Tires are hugely important, and the move to tubeless radials was gigantic. How did the front tires escape going tubeless. Fantic tried it, but it was abandoned for some reason. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamo Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) Due in part to the fact that a good rider on a 20 year old bike can still beat an average one on a new bike. And to some extent all trials bikes are - quite rightly- limited by the tyres. Well, a good rider in virtually any motorcycle discipline will beat an average one if the superior rider is on a 20-year-old bike. But, a rider on a new bike will perform far better than he would on a 20-year-old machine. Tires are hugely important, and the move to tubeless radials was gigantic. How did the front tires escape going tubeless. Fantic tried it, but it was abandoned for some reason. Anyone? Mountain bikes started to go tubeless a couple of years ago.But there is debate in the MTB community where there are great benefits to be had for the weight gain.I personally would never go back to tubed on my MTB.I can see the MTB'ers going over to Tubeless completely they are advancing in design by leaps and bounds.Unfortunately most of the mtb tyre manufactures are not doing Moto trials tyres. I can see the Technology from MTBing crossing over to Trials bikes if it is not already happening. The technology being thrown at MTBing amazes me with the suspension(Marzocchi,Fox,Manitou and many others)brakes (Magura,hayes etc)Updating the products every year across four disciplines(XC,freeride,DH and DJ) and then there is the frames which are being designed lighter and stronger every year. My trials forks are vaguely similar to my mtb forks.Except my MTB forks have more adjustments and are plusher. Imagine a 50 kg Trials bike. Edited September 22, 2007 by bigdamo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 I work on all types of modern technology on a daily basis in the auto industry. ABS, eletronic throttles , EFI, multi-stage airbags, electronic stability programs that operate your throttle and brakes for you so you are less likely to put your own stupid ar-- in a ditch! In my opinion, the bikes that are currently built for trials are soo specialty built for the "non' average rider, mostly at WTC level or near, that the truly average rider may have great difficulty coping with it! You see, everything is a trade off! There is no single solution to this delima, although there is at least an attempt with the things like the 4T Scorpa in the long ride configuration and the TRAIL version, what do you call it? And although that motor is a big lump, it still works! Hell, if the Honda motor was not such a rebuilt(read overbuilt) piece of motocross engineering, they could have put a battery pack on it instead ov capcitors so the friggin thing would run below 1200 rpm and not weigh a ton! There are only 5 true modern dedicated trials motors out there right now, with the #6 yet to be seen. The Gasser 2T, the Beta 2 and 4T, the Sherco 2 and 4T! The Gasser 4T is TBD! The 2T Scorps is a good running 20 + year design, but is not counted here! The others don't really qualify! I like good things that are simple and work form a design and engineering standpoint! And for reliability and maintenance! What can you fix sitting on the side of the road? Easily? Anyone had a load of bad dirty fuel in a Mont? You are fu---! I may be old enough to recall Amal's and Bing's, and Dellorto's are not all that much better, but it does not yet mean I need microchips on a trials bike, they should be totally banned in MHO, as the trials is still about Man and Machine(not electrinics) vs the Terrain, even in the indoor manmade events! And untill the point is reached that the tree huggers and the EPA government mandates absolutly require otherwise, it should be kept that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted September 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Disc brakes acknowledged Don I reckon the next BIG step in trials is taking it Electric. A fully electric bike would suppress the Environmental Lobby, You can ride it without making any noise. That would open up lots of new areas and places to ride. The bike would be a cross over from MTB and trials technology. (as suggested above). Sinclair's battery technology could be adapted. The bike could reach 50kg! What do you reckon to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamo Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Electric Trials bike why not.They got a electric drag bike that does the quarter mile in 8 seconds and 155 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 copemech Posted Today, 12:29 AM I like good things that are simple and work form a design and engineering standpoint! And for reliability and maintenance! What can you fix sitting on the side of the road? Easily? Anyone had a load of bad dirty fuel in a Mont? You are fu---! I think that Copemech makes a very good point here. The majority of trials riders are do-it-yourselfers when it comes to maintenance and repair. I am decently mechanically inclined and if I have access to proper spares on the day of the event I can repair just about anything that may break on event day and continue to ride. The way the bikes are made now are relatively easy to diagnose the problem, if getting into throttle by wire now there are sensors, contact points, and more wires. if you crash in the water and the throttle is submerged what will that do to the throttle by wire? What I am trying to say is that the new technology is more difficult for the majority of riders to understand, the majority of riders are not 17-18 and totally interested in all things electronic. Majority I think are 25-50 and mechanically inclined. Just my opinion, and usually nobody cares anyways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcr500 Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 The monoshock was clearly huge, as was the advent of two-strokes in the '60s. Come to think of it, two-strokes really came to trials before motocross. The two stroke development originally came from GP racing of course, courtesy of MZ for coming up with the expansion chamber, later stolen by suzuki, literally. Its a pity that two stroke corporate development in motorcycles came to a stop in the 80's, Largely due to emmission laws. Imagine if the 2 stoke technology now in snowmobiles and jetski's came back to motorcycles. Not just trials bikes either. Imagine a 1000cc 2 stroke fuel injected in line four engine in a superbike. Lighter and more powerful than the present rake of jap superbikes. 250mph anyone? I dont think we will ever see the kind of 2-stroke development that took place in the 60's return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottt Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Let's not underestimate disc brakes, however. Without the braking ability that comes with hydraulic discs, we would never have the spectacular tricks we have now. Can you imagine indoor sections without discs? Ultimately, disc brakes made the shift from no-stop to stop make sense. Now thats a great idea, that would put an end to the stop/no stop argument get everybody back on drum brakes and make the sections to suit. Given that most advances start in F1 work there way on GP bikes then many years later filter down to Trials, it wouldnt surprise me to see traction control on trials bikes in the next 20yrs or so. If trials does go the 4T way expect to see plenty of various ways of opening and closing the valves come in over the next 10yrs. The idea of being able to Bluetooth engine maps is great, imagine the fun you could have in the que for a section changing peoples settings, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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