ishy Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I have got to wonder if the topic would of even been started if it was Raga instead of Doug ? They should let the world championship lads score each other, that should sort the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas gas liam Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I understand why it was a one but doesn't most people do this in the indoor and get away with it or do they still all get a one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I think using toes to lever is allowed indoors - different sport with its own rules. No, the subject probably wouldn't be debated if it was Raga or anyone else, only reason it made news is because of the association referred to between Lampkin and Colley. However, doesn't matter who it was, the rider failed to get over the ledge, sumped it, stopped and then used toes to help lever the bike over, more than once. That isn't allowed so incurs a penalty. Brave decision by the observer. As is normal, the crowd only want to see their own rider(s) score a clean and anything contentious or dubious is ignored, must be a clean at all costs and ignoring the use of the feet, they were whooping and baying him to the ends cards which must have increased the pressure to take the easy option and signal a clean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas gas liam Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Fair play to the observer cant be easy at that level, lots of pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) I can sort of sympathise with the observer. He's given his decision based on his judgement and that's final, unless he's misinterpreted the rules (which i don't think he has). But.....I have to admit I would have given him (or anybody else) a clean for that. I really don't believe he gained any advantage from his toes touching that rock. If his bike had wanted to slip back , it would have just slipped back and left his toes on the rock, there was no position of leverage there. I've had the same where a rider has knocked a tree, and it's actually sent him off balance. I wouldn't give him a dab for the simple reason that he's not gained any advantage from it. Good to discuss though. Slightly separate note, I think it's dangerousd to say it's a brave decision. We develop observers on a bravery mission who love to catch out a rider any way they can - bit of bravado and the common sense goes out the window. Was there a 5 at Hawkstone this year when a rider leaned on a rock and was given a 5 because if the rock wasn't there he would have fallen over??? Or is that one of these urban myths? Edited October 4, 2007 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) Slightly separate note, I think it's dangerousd to say it's a brave decision. We develop observers on a bravery mission who love to catch out a rider any way they can - bit of bravado and the common sense goes out the window.Was there a 5 at Hawkstone this year when a rider leaned on a rock and was given a 5 because if the rock wasn't there he would have fallen over??? Or is that one of these urban myths? in reply to the above yes i gave a five to a rider who was lying on his side against a rock at hawkstone this year, and yes the rider wasn't very happy about it!!! infact i learn't some new names and swear words about myself and my mother for the privelige of giving my time and effort to help with the running of the trial, but the rider who i will not name did come and apologise on his second lap. Its not an easyjob observing at any level of trials and no matter how well you think you can do the job, a lot of riders always think they can do better than you. and for the record i would have given him a clean as well, but as long as the observer scored every rider the same then its harsh but fair Edited October 5, 2007 by Slapshot 3 sorted quote box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donaldduck Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I was a that section and i couldnt really see what went on, But after watching that video i have to say i dont think dougie gained any help from his toes touching the rock. You can see when someone uses there toes to gain an advantage. In this case i dont think he did. BUT........ like everyone else is saying if its the same for everyone, Its harsh but fair DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 First the big debate was "stop or no stop", and hopping is evil. Now we have moved on to "toes or no toes" as many have already said if he scored all the same and did not misinterpret the rules as written then he was fair. I had a similiar decision by an observer, I was stuck on a rock, and I will admit to using my toes of both feet, while the arch of my feet were still on the pegs, to leverage myself forward enough to get the rest of the way over the rock. I was given a 2, can't remember if I put my foot down again somewhere else or not. But I believe he scored all riders the same, harsh but fair. And I thanked him at the end of the day for volunteering to stand in the woods all day and watch me make a fool of myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) Slightly separate note, I think it's dangerousd to say it's a brave decision. We develop observers on a bravery mission who love to catch out a rider any way they can - bit of bravado and the common sense goes out the window.Was there a 5 at Hawkstone this year when a rider leaned on a rock and was given a 5 because if the rock wasn't there he would have fallen over??? Or is that one of these urban myths? in reply to the above yes i gave a five to a rider who was lying on his side against a rock at hawkstone this year, and yes the rider wasn't very happy about it!!! infact i learn't some new names and swear words about myself and my mother for the privelige of giving my time and effort to help with the running of the trial, but the rider who i will not name did come and apologise on his second lap. Its not an easyjob observing at any level of trials and no matter how well you think you can do the job, a lot of riders always think they can do better than you. and for the record i would have given him a clean as well, but as long as the observer scored every rider the same then its harsh but fair Ah see, by the time the rider got round to our section, I think he only leaned his knee on a rock so maybe an urban myth created in half a lap. I wasn't judging you, just asking. I knew someone would recognise the description. Two sides to every story. You should have yellow carded him, and he could have run through your whole family Edited October 5, 2007 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I would like to see in the rule book where it say's a rider can use their foot to regain balance and not incur a penalty. A rider of my ability if loosing balance or could possibly slip back off an obstacle will put the foot down to save themselves or end up in a heap, the top lad's are bloody artist at saving it with the front part of the foot while keeping the boot on the peg, but are still using it to regain balance, is there a different set of rules for them? this isn't about any named rider, but the credibility of the sport. How can you question an observers call if it is a correct call stated in the rules. I can't believe how many have said they can see why the observer gave the rider a dab, but if it were them observing they would of given the rider a clean, is that fair observing to the rider who does clean the section correctly. How could a spectator begin to understand the scoring, when one rider dabs and get's one penalty point, and another dabs and doesn't, they probably think the rules are just like assembly instructions, more guidelines then rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulthistle Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 (edited) His foot is pushing on at least two attempts to clear the rock. That is clear on the video. If it's a rule is it harsh? Or is it still impressive enough to watch you just don't want to give them a point? It looked like one foot on the ground and hopping up and one foot touching again to me. Thats a two! Edited October 6, 2007 by paul_thistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 This type of decision really winds me up.When riding abroad in WTC, Euro Champs etc, the Home riders always seem to get the benefit of the doubt from observers, and the Brits hardly ever get away with nowt! So on the rare occasion when we come home to ride in an international event, the good old Brit observers mark our own even harsher!!! Awesome Absolutely, it should happen that our riders get the benefit but I,ve also only seen the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 I think using toes to lever is allowed indoors - different sport with its own rules.No, the subject probably wouldn't be debated if it was Raga or anyone else, only reason it made news is because of the association referred to between Lampkin and Colley. However, doesn't matter who it was, the rider failed to get over the ledge, sumped it, stopped and then used toes to help lever the bike over, more than once. That isn't allowed so incurs a penalty. Brave decision by the observer. As is normal, the crowd only want to see their own rider(s) score a clean and anything contentious or dubious is ignored, must be a clean at all costs and ignoring the use of the feet, they were whooping and baying him to the ends cards which must have increased the pressure to take the easy option and signal a clean Indoors is always feet on rests no penalty, this is probably where the grey area has come in, and one absolute expert at it is Loris Gubian of France, watched him several times on the continent get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 It has to be a clean otherwise if you apply the letter of the law (rules) Dougie was expected to move his boot from the peg in case his boot came into contact with anything other than ......the peg??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasssser Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I personally dont think it should be counted as a dab.If you get in a situation where your foot is so close to touching the floor or a rock,the action of you manouvering the bike makes it impossible not to touch the floor.It would be hard for an observer to tell the difference between a dab,or touching ground accidently whilst manouvering etc,so for this reason i think it shouldnt count as a dab. Today i have been to the british trial at skyrakes,Its surprising how many rider`s toes touch the rocks or whatever in this situation.Its immpossible to tell wether its done accidently or used to gain an advantage.You could argue till you are blue in the face. The only thing i can compare all this to is the offside rule in footy,where there is a "dogy offside decision"almost every weekend."was he on or was he off",Didn he touch or did he gain an unfair advantage" blah blah blah... If anybody knows about footy,then you will know what i mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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