diggler Posted March 29, 2008 Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 I have been watching this post with interest and would like to make the following observation. Myself and Lancsvet (who appears on these pages from time to time!) did the lions share of the course plotting for the Lancs County round. I would like to say that modern bikes do not enter my mind when setting sections for this event! I am of the opinion that if you can take 6 to 12 marks of the likes of Nigel Birkett, Phil Wiffen & a certain fat lad on a Majesty twinshock or similar marks off Dave Thorpe & Neil Gaunt in the pre 75 class then the modern bikes will fall in line behind. If someone on a Beta Or Sherco goes round for 1 or 2, well good for them !!!! So far as Majesty340's theory theat the series in badly supported or dying! our entry was split as follows- 17no Pre 75 43no Twinshocks 14no Air cooled mono's 71no in the modern bike classes No Novices,Intermediates or Experts to prop the entry up, just the classic classes!! That is 74 riders in the 3no what I would call the classic classes, hardly a bad entry for a trial on their own? There was a similar split and numbers at Bootle the day after. My own theory on this good classic entry is that both trials have no roadwork!! A lot of the older twinshock & Pre 75 bikes are not road registered and who wants to spend a couple of grand restoring a bike and then thrash it around the roads? Thats what Honda Fireblades are for!! So as Woody has said earlier, I dont know what rounds you ridden or orginised Mr majesty 340 but you obviously have not been up north!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Majestyman340 you are still not answering Woodys question. or mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitley Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 or mine Can anyone smell bull****? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I tell you what if you miserable old buggers can't keep your own championship supported and free of arguments, then don't even suggest trying to bring your whinging to another championship.The Novogar is in no way related to your classic championship. There were 130 riders at the Lomax last week, (and incidentally at least one of those was on a twinshock so it is possible). I've always fancied taking a 240 round some of the Novogar rounds. But i digress. "IF" the Novogar needs to boost entries (which a lot of them don't) then they could possibly add a route for the lower clubman riders - not something I agree with as I believe it needs to stay rideable by the majority of good to average centre riders, like the Lomax (and our Mid Wales Novogar in my view). If the routes separate the top route inevitably gets harder. The Novogar allows us to use some rivers and streams that we just can't use for most of our trials because we can't get the kids, novices and old folks anywhere near them. We cater for 4 routes in all of our trials - Our Novogar is special because we go where we want - some classic sections which we'd have to miss to cater for lesser riders (not lesser machines - as I said I'd do most of our sections on a big Majesty or Fantic 240 without too much fear of denting it.) If you want to sort your classic championship out, get together with one of your local clubs and run a round of the traditional. Advertise it at the level you're talking about and if it's successful, you'll surely drive the way the championship goes. I do believe you still need to cater for the better riders on the twinshock machines. The bikes your riding are my era, I ride the expert route normally, I don't turn in to a complete spastic when I swing my leg over a twinshock. Inevitably it makes me slightly less able, but not to the level that you seem to be talking about for the classic. Normal Inter sections and most of the Novogar are still possible. Plenty of others at the same level, the way Woody throws his tank around (no offence Woody) I think he would class himself in the same category. I've already digressed - summary - Leave the bloody Novogar out of this - it sounds like you're nowhere near it. If the Novagar series is so well supported then surely the inclusion around of 10 riders on twinshocks and brit specials riding the same sections as the modern bikes isnt going to ruin the events? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Riders of twinshock and Pre 65 often think that Europe is some sort of utopia for classic trials when certainly in France, it is not.It is assumed that the events here are bigger and better supported with an abundance of trials to choose from. I would suggest there is an average of one big trial per month, and this is possibly the only chance to ride a classic trials bike either pre 65 or twinshock, very very seldom do modern trials cater for the above so to ride you have to travel and thus the trials are well supported. Every weekend in England, centre trials cater for classic bikes and you can ride every week if you so wish, there is no need to travel the length and breath of the Uk just to give your bike an outing, you are almost spoilt for choice... I am not sure if this helps the present discussion but riding in France compared to England, National championships etc is not easy as the whole situation is different. Salut et Bon weekend Could the reason European events are so well supported. have to do with the fact that organisers have no need to cater for modern bikes, are able to lay out sensible sections that are possible for riders of older machinery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 or mine 120: number of classic riders regularly taking part in original "Falcon" twinshock events. 20: number of twinshock and brit special riders regularly competing in "traditional" series ..................res ipsa loquitur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I have been watching this post with interest and would like to make the following observation.Myself and Lancsvet (who appears on these pages from time to time!) did the lions share of the course plotting for the Lancs County round. I would like to say that modern bikes do not enter my mind when setting sections for this event! I am of the opinion that if you can take 6 to 12 marks of the likes of Nigel Birkett, Phil Wiffen & a certain fat lad on a Majesty twinshock or similar marks off Dave Thorpe & Neil Gaunt in the pre 75 class then the modern bikes will fall in line behind. If someone on a Beta Or Sherco goes round for 1 or 2, well good for them !!!! So far as Majesty340's theory theat the series in badly supported or dying! our entry was split as follows- 17no Pre 75 43no Twinshocks 14no Air cooled mono's 71no in the modern bike classes No Novices,Intermediates or Experts to prop the entry up, just the classic classes!! That is 74 riders in the 3no what I would call the classic classes, hardly a bad entry for a trial on their own? There was a similar split and numbers at Bootle the day after. My own theory on this good classic entry is that both trials have no roadwork!! A lot of the older twinshock & Pre 75 bikes are not road registered and who wants to spend a couple of grand restoring a bike and then thrash it around the roads? Thats what Honda Fireblades are for!! So as Woody has said earlier, I dont know what rounds you ridden or orginised Mr majesty 340 but you obviously have not been up north!!!!! Bearing in mind that a fair number of the twinshock riders in the 2 NE events dont do any of the other rounds, I dont think the numbers here are representative of the series as a whole...............but interesting to note the numbers are pretty close to what was common, before numerous modern bike classes spelt the end of this series as serious championship level events.......................the winner of the Saturday event lost 4 marks................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Can anyone smell bull****? Seems a real shame that unhelpful critiscism and childish backbiting seems so common on here....................be great if anyone else could come up with some ideas that might help increase entrys to the "traditional" series, and maybe even establish a proper championship where a few marks would be taken from the top twinshock and brit special riders! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy m Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think you'll find there is fair place for criticism especially when you fail to answer Woodys and Nigel Dabsters questions. But you then continue to ramble on regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest majestyman340 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think you'll find there is fair place for criticism especially when you fail to answer Woodys and Nigel Dabsters questions. But you then continue to ramble on regardless. Exactly right...........................but in regard to the shambles of the "traditional" championship, I think the very low numbers of regular entrys from riders of twinshocks and brit specials, and the total exclusion of more original "P65" bikes speaks for itself, and to me is a crying shame, not a matter for silly confrontations on here. British Twinshock Championship Class: Brit Twinshock and Non Brit Twinshock Classes to run at Novagar rounds, using same sections as modern bikes (this would mean sections likely to take more than 4 marks from the winner, but perhaps not an option for less able riders on std bikes). Traditional Championship: Modern + period air cooled mono, twinshock, brit twinshock, P65.......................this could be run on a simple 3 route format, and anyone not complying with clear eligibility rules, would have to ride the next class up. Feel free to come up with some ideas on this subject, but please dont suggest a viabable national championship is able to run with only 20 riders, where sections are so easy winners commonly lose less than 10 marks...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Just picking up on the Novogar idea (and certainly not wishing to get into the Classic championship debate in any way, as I haven't ridden in the series) If I understand the idea correctly, we are talking about twinshocks riding in the Novogars rounds with their own class but on the same route? Having organised a number of Novogar events, I agree that there is a small number of riders who would get a twin shock round. But I don't believe there would be many, our Novogar sections although suitable for clubmen, certainly aren't set out with twin shock bikes in mind! Wouldn't this idea simply kill of the twin shock championship completely rather than encourage it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 (edited) If the Novagar series is so well supported then surely the inclusion around of 10 riders on twinshocks and brit specials riding the same sections as the modern bikes isnt going to ruin the events? I don't understand why you think that the twinshocks and Brit specials fit in any way with the Novogar????? The Novogar is entirely modern and very successful series. A decent rider could get a good twinshock round, but you wouldn't anywhere near it with any British bike I've seen (including the sort of thing that Grant/Gaunt etc might turn up on) You are way off the mark suggesting that these should be anywhere near the Novogar. You obviously don't understand the series and you can't possibly have been to many of them or God forbid ridden one? Why don't we shove the classic championships in with the British Championships? .................Because that's an equally stoooopid idea! Edit: By the way, there's nothing stopping these elite riders you're talking about, riding the Novogar now, but they can't expect the sections to be marked out with them in mind, and there won't be any award for best rider on a dinosaur. Your suggestion was to attach the Classic Champs to the Novogar though, which is an entirely different thing. Edited March 30, 2008 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I don't understand why you think that the twinshocks and Brit specials fit in any way with the Novogar????? The Novogar is entirely modern and very successful series.A decent rider could get a good twinshock round, but you wouldn't anywhere near it with any British bike I've seen (including the sort of thing that Grant/Gaunt etc might turn up on) You are way off the mark suggesting that these should be anywhere near the Novogar. You obviously don't understand the series and you can't possibly have been to many of them or God forbid ridden one? Why don't we shove the classic championships in with the British Championships? .................Because that's an equally stoooopid idea! Edit: By the way, there's nothing stopping these elite riders you're talking about, riding the Novogar now, but they can't expect the sections to be marked out with them in mind, and there won't be any award for best rider on a dinosaur. Subtle as ever Gaz.....but right, you cannot throw twinshocks/classic Brit bikes into Novogar/BTC anything like that. To me the whole point of these championships is creating a level playing field for everyone who wants to compete therefore to throw these old bikes into a modern aimed trial is plain dumb. If there is a demand for this kind of championship and people are willing to put the round on then why is there an issue, bottom line is how much work the organisers want to make for themselves in separating routes. Sections need laid out to suit the bikes not the riders and if you take 10 marks off the winner and 60 off last place in the class then you're pretty spot on I'd say. Reading through the thread I think you're way off the mark majestyman, there is a series and a route for every bike regardless of age and it appears every standard of rider and as long the clubs put them on don't see that we should complain no matter how many turn up each week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 (edited) Exactly right...........................but in regard to the shambles of the "traditional" championship, I think the very low numbers of regular entrys from riders of twinshocks and brit specials, and the total exclusion of more original "P65" bikes speaks for itself, and to me is a crying shame, not a matter for silly confrontations on here.British Twinshock Championship Class: Brit Twinshock and Non Brit Twinshock Classes to run at Novagar rounds, using same sections as modern bikes (this would mean sections likely to take more than 4 marks from the winner, but perhaps not an option for less able riders on std bikes). Traditional Championship: Modern + period air cooled mono, twinshock, brit twinshock, P65.......................this could be run on a simple 3 route format, and anyone not complying with clear eligibility rules, would have to ride the next class up. Feel free to come up with some ideas on this subject, but please dont suggest a viabable national championship is able to run with only 20 riders, where sections are so easy winners commonly lose less than 10 marks...................... You seem to have no grasp of reality whatsoever. I don't know of a single person who would suggest that the Novogar series might be a suitable place for the Twinshocks and Brit Specials to join in as their Championship. I'm beginning to think you're only trolling? Have you ever been to a Novogar event? I really don't understand your point at all now. One minute you seemed to say the modern bikes had made things too hard and you couldn't get your Majesty round without breaking it, and next minute you're saying with only 20 bikes (presumably the twinshocks and brit specials) sections are so easy that winners lose less than 10. I'll stay out of what you need to do with your championship, but it seems that they're not that far off already, just needs some tweaking, and a little positivity instead of constant whinging. Sounds like your aim is to drag the Championship to its knees - what is your real gripe with it? Not everybody is going to win awards - there are some very good 40, 50 and even 60 year olds out there on classic bikes. They're going to win, and most people are going to have to ride a championship for fun. Where's the problem? P.S. You were writing your replies at lunch time while the rest of us were out riding/organising Edited March 30, 2008 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 You seem to have no grasp of reality whatsoever.I don't know of a single person who would suggest that the Novogar series might be a suitable place for the Twinshocks and Brit Specials to join in as their Championship. I'm beginning to think you're only trolling? Have you ever been to a Novogar event? I really don't understand your point at all now. One minute you seemed to say the modern bikes had made things too hard and you couldn't get your Majesty round without breaking it, and next minute you're saying with only 20 bikes (presumably the twinshocks and brit specials) sections are so easy that winners lose less than 10. I'll stay out of what you need to do with your championship, but it seems that they're not that far off already, just needs some tweaking, and a little positivity instead of constant whinging. Sounds like your aim is to drag the Championship to its knees - what is your real gripe with it? Not everybody is going to win awards - there are some very good 40, 50 and even 60 year olds out there on classic bikes. They're going to win, and most people are going to have to ride a championship for fun. Where's the problem? P.S. You were writing your replies at lunch time while the rest of us were out riding/organising Beat me to it ! Why is a row going on during a day when you should be riding/observing/organising ? I've ridden a Somerton club trial today - first one of theirs I've ridden,bikes ranged form a rigid Ariel with open valve gear and girder forks to brand new GG and Sherco's etc on an A or B route.Didnt hear a single moan all day,great day out and well run.Surely this is what trials is all about ? Talking to a bloke from Germany at the Dartmoor 2 day last Sept he said that over there they only have around 20 clubs each owning a single trials venue no other land is used and they cant ride in streams.Surely we should just enjoy what we have before Defra or whoever do the same to us ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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