Observing Rules

[phb]

I know i will be probably opening a big can of worms and lots have been said on the subject but i am wondering how many people actually know the rules of observing !!!! or should i say the rules of trials I consider myself to be reasonably good at observing and have observed at the 3 hawkstone rounds and various other high level trials and have been surprised at the questions being asked regarding what is a 5!!! this is not just about observing at world round level but includes all levels of competion,

for example if a rider is sumped out on a rock or other obsticle and stalls the engine, what is there score for this ? im not saying that i know all the rules, as in most trials there is something new what happens and you have to make a judgement on the spot and cannot always get this 100% correct all the time.

[stevel]

There are many rules in trials, but only 2 for observers

1. The observers decision is final

2. In the event of a dispute-refer to Rule 1

Seriously I don't know how the rules would apply to the scenario you mention, but personally I would always give a 5 and quote rule 1 above

Edited October 11, 2007 by stevel

[matt]

I know i will be probably opening a big can of worms and lots have been said on the subject but i am wondering how many people actually know the rules of observing !!!! or should i say the rules of trials I consider myself to be reasonably good at observing and have observed at the 3 hawkstone rounds and various other high level trials and have been surprised at the questions being asked regarding what is a 5!!! this is not just about observing at world round level but includes all levels of competion,

for example if a rider is sumped out on a rock or other obsticle and stalls the engine, what is there score for this ? im not saying that i know all the rules, as in most trials there is something new what happens and you have to make a judgement on the spot and cannot always get this 100% correct all the time.

scenario above: as long as the riders feet do not make contact with the ground between stalling and kicking the bike off again, nor do they remove their hands from the handlebars to aid kicking the bike off then it is still a clean (or a 1 for a stop depending on rules been used). this applies when not sumped out on a rock so why should it change when doing so?

[matt]

There are many rules in trials, but only 2 for observers

1. The observers decision is final

2. In the event of a dispute-refer to Rule 1

Seriously I don't know how the rules would apply to the scenario you mention, but personally I would always give a 5 and quote rule 1 above

you would get some serious abouse from me if u deemed that a 5 and then when questioned you gave the reply....my decision is final!! an observer especially in your situation whereby you dont actually no the rules should be open minded. if several people are telling you the rules and you stick to the 'my decision is final attitude' then hows that fair. most trials at a decent level can be won and lost over a couple of marks and obsevers need to be aware of that! if an observor is unsure why not ask around for other opinions? usually because observors like to think they no it all!!!

[phb]

There are many rules in trials, but only 2 for observers

1. The observers decision is final

2. In the event of a dispute-refer to Rule 1

Seriously I don't know how the rules would apply to the scenario you mention, but personally I would always give a 5 and quote rule 1 above

you would get some serious abouse from me if u deemed that a 5 and then when questioned you gave the reply....my decision is final!! an observer especially in your situation whereby you dont actually no the rules should be open minded. if several people are telling you the rules and you stick to the 'my decision is final attitude' then hows that fair. most trials at a decent level can be won and lost over a couple of marks and obsevers need to be aware of that! if an observor is unsure why not ask around for other opinions? usually because observors like to think they no it all!!!

for the record i think you will find that it would be a 5 as you are not balancing the bike but are sat on the sump!! anybody can start a bike in that situation, but how many riders can do it when they are balancing on rocks ? i for one cannot and yes there is lots of riders who can, hence why the rules of trials were set out this way to make it fair for all abilities.

if the observer is unsure of the penalty for a particular incident they should try and ask somebody else, but this isn't always practicle and they have to make a decision at the time.

as for the statement that you would give the observer some serious abuse this is why clubs are always struggling to get people to observer in the first instance and if you did this to me i would have no hesitation in refusing to observe you through the section on any following laps of the trial, riders must remember that the observer is doing this because they enjoy the sport and do not expect to be abused.

[zippy]

aaaahhhh rules are different depending on location, country, state, city, etc....

I believe that any observer should be given a rule book for the event and or club that they are observing for. That way they have access to documented rules. Of course there is always times where intrepretation will come into play. A rule book should also be available for all riders in the trial to have access to in order to check rules. Possibly a couple copies at the sign up table. And like it or not the observer has the final say. But in general the benefit of the doubt usually goes to the rider.

on the topic of sumped out on a rock:

Excerpt from the 2007 MOTA trials handbook

"Stalled engine: a stalled engine in a section shall not be considered a failure as long as the rider remains in balance or the bike maintains forward motion. Restarting the engine while stopped with support other than the tires shall be scored a failure. A rider may use a hand to reposition the kick-starter as long as balance is maintained."

"Pushing the bike out of the section, as long as both feet are not on the same side of center of the motorcycle and forward motion is maintained, shall be scored according to the number of dabs taken."

Max number of penalty points for dabs are 3.

So using these two rules in the case of sumped out on a rock and stalling.

If rider stops and restarts bike it is a 5. He is being supported by the skid plate on the rock not just the tires.

If rider stalls and pushes bike off rock maintaining forward motion and proceeds to push bike out of the section maintaining forward motion and obeying all markers for his class he will receive a 3.

I am not voicing an opinion on these rules just posting them to show that there are differences depending on location and club. All riders and observers need to know what rules the trial is operating under. That is what makes the event fair and an even test of all riders involved.

[scottt]

So basically you can paddle through a complete section without your engine running for a 3, but if you get stuck on a rock and stall, its a 5.

I cant start my engine in a section, thanks to Sammy Miller footrests I have to lift one of them to allow the kickstart to swing all the way, and i cant do that while trying to balance.

A simple sheet explaining the basics given to an observer would be enough if you start forcing them to read rule books you'll end up with less people wanting to do it.

I overheard this at a recent Trial, An elderly lady was going to observe, her husband was riding in the vetran class, when he was asked which section would be best for her he replied "she'll do this section here (section 1 nearest the car park) she cant walk up there she has trouble seeing where shes going" yes its true.

[matt]

There are many rules in trials, but only 2 for observers

1. The observers decision is final

2. In the event of a dispute-refer to Rule 1

Seriously I don't know how the rules would apply to the scenario you mention, but personally I would always give a 5 and quote rule 1 above

you would get some serious abouse from me if u deemed that a 5 and then when questioned you gave the reply....my decision is final!! an observer especially in your situation whereby you dont actually no the rules should be open minded. if several people are telling you the rules and you stick to the 'my decision is final attitude' then hows that fair. most trials at a decent level can be won and lost over a couple of marks and obsevers need to be aware of that! if an observor is unsure why not ask around for other opinions? usually because observors like to think they no it all!!!

for the record i think you will find that it would be a 5 as you are not balancing the bike but are sat on the sump!! anybody can start a bike in that situation, but how many riders can do it when they are balancing on rocks ? i for one cannot and yes there is lots of riders who can, hence why the rules of trials were set out this way to make it fair for all abilities.

if the observer is unsure of the penalty for a particular incident they should try and ask somebody else, but this isn't always practicle and they have to make a decision at the time.

as for the statement that you would give the observer some serious abuse this is why clubs are always struggling to get people to observer in the first instance and if you did this to me i would have no hesitation in refusing to observe you through the section on any following laps of the trial, riders must remember that the observer is doing this because they enjoy the sport and do not expect to be abused.

it wouldnt be the 5 i wouldnt be happy with but the attitude of some observors. im right and thats that. ive had observors clearly get my riding number mixed or something and when i asked what score i had on the section in total, which i knew was clean, was told 11!!! i simply asked the question how have you got that its impossible etc.....next min im getting told off for arguing. the section cost me the win!

[phb]

IA simple sheet explaining the basics given to an observer would be enough if you start forcing them to read rule books you'll end up with less people wanting to do it.

Our club have the basic's printed on the score card ie dab = 1 stop =1 and so on, but there is lots of other instances were penalties can be given according to the rule book, The point is HOW many observers & riders actually know the rules, i have seen riders not penalised when flicking the back round in a tight turn, the wheel has clearly gone outside the boundaries of the section and they have been given a clean. but the rider who cannot bounce and flick there bikes round are scored accordingly for footing through the turn.

i know that a lot of riders like to have a good moan at the observers but how many of these riders actually have a go at observing ? I would like to see that if you ride in a club championship, you have to observer 1 round of the championship to be eligble for points.

[matt]

aaaahhhh rules are different depending on location, country, state, city, etc....

I believe that any observer should be given a rule book for the event and or club that they are observing for. That way they have access to documented rules. Of course there is always times where intrepretation will come into play. A rule book should also be available for all riders in the trial to have access to in order to check rules. Possibly a couple copies at the sign up table. And like it or not the observer has the final say. But in general the benefit of the doubt usually goes to the rider.

on the topic of sumped out on a rock:

Excerpt from the 2007 MOTA trials handbook

"Stalled engine: a stalled engine in a section shall not be considered a failure as long as the rider remains in balance or the bike maintains forward motion. Restarting the engine while stopped with support other than the tires shall be scored a failure. A rider may use a hand to reposition the kick-starter as long as balance is maintained."

"Pushing the bike out of the section, as long as both feet are not on the same side of center of the motorcycle and forward motion is maintained, shall be scored according to the number of dabs taken."

Max number of penalty points for dabs are 3.

So using these two rules in the case of sumped out on a rock and stalling.

If rider stops and restarts bike it is a 5. He is being supported by the skid plate on the rock not just the tires.

If rider stalls and pushes bike off rock maintaining forward motion and proceeds to push bike out of the section maintaining forward motion and obeying all markers for his class he will receive a 3.

I am not voicing an opinion on these rules just posting them to show that there are differences depending on location and club. All riders and observers need to know what rules the trial is operating under. That is what makes the event fair and an even test of all riders involved.

under the same set off rules you have just quoted from :

Failure: when the rider intentionally moves either wheel to the side without maintaining forward motion. this rule clearly doesnt apply to the world championship nor the british championship so how can the balancing on the sump be accurate info if quoted from these rules. the question was asked specifically about these types of trials?

[phb]

[]

it wouldnt be the 5 i wouldnt be happy with but the attitude of some observors. im right and thats that. ive had observors clearly get my riding number mixed or something and when i asked what score i had on the section in total, which i knew was clean, was told 11!!! i simply asked the question how have you got that its impossible etc.....next min im getting told off for arguing. the section cost me the win!

I can understand were you are coming from in that respect yes there are some observers who think they are GOD !!!! i always believe that if i have made a mistake or there is a possiblity i have made a mistake i would always give the rider the benefit of doubt. but not all will do this. I lost a trial by 2 marks when i looked at the results i had been scored a 5 on a section which i know i had cleaned but unfortunately the observer said he was correct.

[stevel]

Matt,

Have you ever heard the phrase 'tongue in cheek' as this was the spirit in which my original comment was made. Having said that I would like to add the following

1. I no longer observe after many years of observing week in week out in all sorts of weather, simply because of the 'serious abuse' that happens

2. Do you honestly think that it is in the spirit of club trials to give someone a clean who stops resting on their sump plate on a rock with the engine stopped while a genuine attempt gets penalised?

[frodobaggins]

Maybe matts attitude is the reason his local club has had to reduce the number of sections because it cant find enough observers

[matt]

Maybe matts attitude is the reason his local club has had to reduce the number of sections because it cant find enough observers

I can guarantee it is nothing to do with that! The reason there is no observers is due to the lack of youth competitiors entering. it seems to be generally middle aged men turning up alone for a ride. not bringing anyone with them.(and rightly so) if we had more youth riders mums and dads(the taxi drivers) will often take an observors board.

[matt]

[]

it wouldnt be the 5 i wouldnt be happy with but the attitude of some observors. im right and thats that. ive had observors clearly get my riding number mixed or something and when i asked what score i had on the section in total, which i knew was clean, was told 11!!! i simply asked the question how have you got that its impossible etc.....next min im getting told off for arguing. the section cost me the win!

I can understand were you are coming from in that respect yes there are some observers who think they are GOD !!!! i always believe that if i have made a mistake or there is a possiblity i have made a mistake i would always give the rider the benefit of doubt. but not all will do this. I lost a trial by 2 marks when i looked at the results i had been scored a 5 on a section which i know i had cleaned but unfortunately the observer said he was correct.

Annoying isnt it! your right some observers get off on what power they have and what affect they as individuals can have on a result. i agree the rider gets the benefit of the doubt! thats how it should be. last weeks BTC at skyrakes...i clearly had 2 solid dabs on a section and the observer went to punch 3, i stopped him and said where have you got 3 from? as ususal he said there, there and there. i questioned some more and he began to back track but instead of admitting the error he said you dragged your foot down there anyway so its still 3. some might think oh its only 1 mark...at BTC thats cost me 3 places before. (luckily, or not...my riding was dreadfull and would have made no difference anyway).