andy.t Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 OK AtomAnt,very sorry I didn't start this with the correct attitude,I promise I will go and stand in the corner in a minute.Sorry you didn't read all of the comments as some did support what I said. Love you lots, Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybaines Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I have read them all and decided not to post untill earlier, please find the percentage of posters that support you and do some sums on the percentage that don't and find what the majority think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy.t Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Hi barrybaines,thanks for pointing that out,I didn't need to do any sums as I knew that there was more against what I said than fore it.I wasn't looking for a majority vote, just your opinions,so thanks all. God Loves You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) Well this one's been a bit of fun by the look of it. Just out of interest Andy, what line of work are you in? Edited December 1, 2007 by bikespace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilco Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Just out of interest Andy, what line of work are you in? Bog cleaner i expect,instead of useing he's tounge to clean the pan he's company wanted to put him on a training course to teach him how to use a brush instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybaines Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Bog cleaner i expect,instead of useing he's tounge to clean the pan he's company wanted to put him on a training course to teach him how to use a brush instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Bog cleaner i expect,instead of useing he's tounge to clean the pan he's company wanted to put him on a training course to teach him how to use a brush instead. Did you mean Andy or Andy.T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Seriously for a minute, you have been slagging your manager but you may need to consider that you are a manager as well. You manage the way you do your work and the way you interact with people. Both of these skills are important but where I find people who have oodles of the first, they lack the second. Everyone at sometime must have seen a poor manager (like yourself) and asked themselves how the hell did they get that job. Well, its normally because they are very good at interacting with the people who matter for their career development. They could be mediocre at best but they will survive by ensuring they are seen in the correct light by their managers. It's not a*** licking as such, just company politics and survival. That's the way it is I'm afraid. You cant beat it, but you can still win! I would say without a doubt you could negotiate a salary increase if you went about it a different way. In most situations, I tend to look at what result I want to achieve and work back from that. If something don't work, then try a different method and so on but at all times, be positive and you will find that the wage rise you are after maybe there after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Everyone at sometime must have seen a poor manager (like yourself) and asked themselves how the hell did they get that job. Well, its normally because they are very good at interacting with the people who matter for their career development. They could be mediocre at best but they will survive by ensuring they are seen in the correct light by their managers. It's not a*** licking as such, just company politics and survival. That's the way it is I'm afraid. You cant beat it, but you can still win! I would say without a doubt you could negotiate a salary increase if you went about it a different way. In most situations, I tend to look at what result I want to achieve and work back from that. If something don't work, then try a different method and so on but at all times, be positive and you will find that the wage rise you are after maybe there after all. Andy.T , re-read my posts..Atoms reply is the erudite(triple word score?)version of what I have been trying to tell you. Good Luck (I don't mean that sarcastically) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arun1664 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Here's a funny thing, companies get the employees they deserve, you treat people badly they will respond appropriately. Fundamentally companies train people to improve/maintain their business and profitability the fact that the individual gets an improved CV is second order. Also it tends to be the case that with training comes additional work/responsibility so in these cases an increase in salary is not an unreasonable expectation on the employees part. Using Andy T as an example, he is clearly unhappy about being asked to train in which he sees no personal benfit, either in terms of pay or the softer issues (general recognition, status, other benefits etc). This is against a background of not being impressed with his boss/company. He has been with the company for 18 years and made a significant commitment to the company and sees no "recognition" for this. Management is just like any profession, you don't just wake up one morning & you are good at it, sounds like Andy's manager thinks he is, or he is simply behaving in the manner in which the company wants him to, either way they are not getting the best out of their people. Question for Andy, is it just you who is p$$ed off or are there others? Adam Ant, interesting view on where bad managers come from, in my experience is is more often "promotion to incompetence" Just because an individual is the top person in a department does not mean he/she is top choice for the new manager and will hit the ground running (how many top football managers were middle order players?) Last point, Again Adam Ant (sorry I am not picking on you!) you talk about negotiation, you run a company and clearly see this as part of the deal, some people do, some don't. Those that don't need to be accommodated because they still do good work. It is a manager perogative to manage, that means recognising problems and fixing them, you do this by communication properly and acting fairly. Most employees just want to do a decent days work, be treated with respect and paid fairly. Fire away ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Here's a funny thing, companies get the employees they deserve, you treat people badly they will respond appropriately. Fundamentally companies train people to improve/maintain their business and profitability the fact that the individual gets an improved CV is second order. Also it tends to be the case that with training comes additional work/responsibility so in these cases an increase in salary is not an unreasonable expectation on the employees part.Using Andy T as an example, he is clearly unhappy about being asked to train in which he sees no personal benfit, either in terms of pay or the softer issues (general recognition, status, other benefits etc). This is against a background of not being impressed with his boss/company. He has been with the company for 18 years and made a significant commitment to the company and sees no "recognition" for this. Management is just like any profession, you don't just wake up one morning & you are good at it, sounds like Andy's manager thinks he is, or he is simply behaving in the manner in which the company wants him to, either way they are not getting the best out of their people. Question for Andy, is it just you who is p$$ed off or are there others? Adam Ant, interesting view on where bad managers come from, in my experience is is more often "promotion to incompetence" Just because an individual is the top person in a department does not mean he/she is top choice for the new manager and will hit the ground running (how many top football managers were middle order players?) Last point, Again Adam Ant (sorry I am not picking on you!) you talk about negotiation, you run a company and clearly see this as part of the deal, some people do, some don't. Those that don't need to be accommodated because they still do good work. It is a manager perogative to manage, that means recognising problems and fixing them, you do this by communication properly and acting fairly. Most employees just want to do a decent days work, be treated with respect and paid fairly. Fire away ....... I don't really think you have said anything different than I have to be honest. One thing that I take issue with is because someone works for a company a long time, that alone shouldn't be regarded as 'making a significant commitment'. In my years of career development, that was regarded as someone who lacked ambition and was frowned upon. Also I may add, that its not the years with a company that's important, its the contribution that person has made which is. IMHO To make a good company, you need employees that are willing to put the effort in to make it good. Employing the right ones in the first place is the key (and very difficult) 'Promotion to incompetence' is a term I have heard many times and supports what I have said. If they are incompetent to manage, but have still been promoted, then they must have achieved what I said in my first post which is they are very good at interacting with the people who matter for their career development. Management skills don't always come into it. As a manager, I have good days and bad days like everyone else but I make a point of going out of my way to put something right that I have gotten wrong. I am a tough person to work for but those that do, tell me they wouldn't want it any other way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arun1664 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) I don't really think you have said anything different than I have to be honest. One thing that I take issue with is because someone works for a company a long time, that alone shouldn't be regarded as 'making a significant commitment'. In my years of career development, that was regarded as someone who lacked ambition and was frowned upon. Also I may add, that its not the years with a company that's important, its the contribution that person has made which is. The significant contribution thing has many facets, sometimes its true, sometimes its not. But in the mind of the employee it is a fact and thats what you have to manage, thats the point i was trying to make IMHO To make a good company, you need employees that are willing to put the effort in to make it good. Employing the right ones in the first place is the key (and very difficult) - sort of agree, but sometimes you have to work with what you have. I manage programmes and get staff assigned to me which puts a different perspective on the whole employing thing, which I suspect is why we differ a little in opinion. The only way to get the best out of these situations/people is understand the problem and go fix it even when it doesn't align with your view of the world. 'Promotion to incompetence' is a term I have heard many times and supports what I have said. If they are incompetent to manage, but have still been promoted, then they must have achieved what I said in my first post which is they are very good at interacting with the people who matter for their career development. Management skills don't always come into it. if I understand you right I think I disagree, promotion to incompetence is giving somebody a management role because the were exceptional in another (different role) an example would be the best engineer in a dept gets the vacant managers job because he is the best engineer, next in line (and is attracted by the prestige and extra cash) not because he will be a good manager. I have worked with a lot of good managers who were middle order engineers but had the toolkit you describe and were selected over better engineers because of that (which in itself causes problems !) As a manager, I have good days and bad days like everyone else but I make a point of going out of my way to put something right that I have gotten wrong. I am a tough person to work for but those that do tell me they wouldn't want it any other way Nothing wrong with tough, everything wrong with not communicating and recognising problems whether of your making or not, that in a nut shell is my point. Not sure if this comes over as offensive (not meant to be) just that this stuff interests me .... Apologies my attempt at using blue to show my replies failed miserably .... Edited December 1, 2007 by AtomAnt Fixed quote tags AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Not sure if this comes over as offensive (not meant to be) just that this stuff interests me ....Apologies my attempt at using blue to show my replies failed miserably .... What I do find is if you allow a mediocre worker to be put alongside someone who is highly motivated and they appear to be getting the same package, the mediocre employee will not get better but the better one's performance will drop. That's why I think is so important to employ the right people and I can of course influence that. In your case ( and one I have had before), you are given someone 'to do something with' and its not so easy. I appreciate that. Your view of the promotion to incompetence is different to mine hence the difference of opinion. That's simply incorrect skill selection but I know what you mean. I do something which I have termed ' stretch the strengths' which means if I have a good engineer, then how good can that person become? I try to then stretch his/her mind to encompass new technologies or processes but always based on his/her core skill. I do this myself to learn new technologies too. But no, I have not taken any offence. This interests me as well although I am not for one minute suggesting I have all the answers to effective management. In fact, I may be doing it all wrong. p.s. I fixed the tags for you .. Do I get a wage rise sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arun1664 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 p.s. I fixed the tags for you .. Do I get a wage rise sir No, but I am very appreciative & you can have the key the the executive toilet ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 No, but I am very appreciative & you can have the key the the executive toilet ...... One thing I think we can probably agree on and that is you change your style of management for the management situation you find yourself in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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