jza Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I've never ridden anyone else's bike until yesterday. I was completely new to trials before i bought a Montesa 4RT on the recommendations of owner and people on this site about a year ago. I have no problems with this advise - its a cracking bike and i wouldnt swap it now for anything. I got on with it well from day one, always found that the power tended to dominate the proceedings, i still do.... thats a 4 stroke i figured I'm used to its manners now... so i guess im past the beginners phase. But... I rode a Beta 250 yesterday... HOW EASY!!!!!!! Jeez guys..... no wonder i struggled at first!!! I'd just thought that all those people who asked why i'd bought an experts bike as a first bike were just jealous... but i get it now.... It's not a beginners bike really is it LOL It seems like NOTHING happens on the Beta unless you want it to... you open the throttle at low speeds and it just trundles along nice and smooth. To shoot off into the distance... you have to tell it to with your wrist and be agressive on the throttle. I agree that things get more lively up the rev range, but theres none of the "jees hold on guys here we go" feeling i can get with the 4RT if im a tiny bit off with my throttle control. The Beta is SO much more beginner friendly..... Fact is that on my 4RT with a "normal" map, you only have to blip the throttle and you are on one wheel. I realise now im actually using the clutch on the 4RT to "power down" the agressive delivery at slow speeds. You only have to breath on it to be jumping up things. I can see that for an expert thats what you need - instant grunt everywhere. No wonder people who have had 2 strokes go for the "soft" map when they switch to a 4RT!!! It must be like getting on a rocket ship!!! Then there's the steering. Mines nice and pointy no complaints - but the Beta feels like it has a steering damper on it in comparison!! If i hit a rock on the 4RT the handlebars react, and ive gone over those bars cause i wasnt holding on hard enough a few times. This is no where near as prominant on the Beta - it just carries on like its on auto pilot. As a beginner i'd have found it so much easier to live with. If anyone who's new to the world of trials asks you if a 4RT is a good beginners bike.... the answer should always be "yes, but try a 2 stroke first"... cause honestly - the bikes a brute compared to a 2 stroke The two strokes a pussy in comparison ([/flame suit on]). LOL Now i get it (one year on) LOL Jza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Having run this site for 4 years now, every time I have seen anyone ask for guidance as to which bike, the advice has been to try as many as possible and see what suits the individual. I'm afraid you've nobody to blame, but yourself for not doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgshannon Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I've never ridden anyone else's bike until yesterday. I was completely new to trials before i bought a Montesa 4RT on the recommendations of owner and people on this site about a year ago. I have no problems with this advise - its a cracking bike and i wouldnt swap it now for anything. I got on with it well from day one, always found that the power tended to dominate the proceedings, i still do.... thats a 4 stroke i figured I'm used to its manners now... so i guess im past the beginners phase. But... I rode a Beta 250 yesterday... HOW EASY!!!!!!! Jeez guys..... no wonder i struggled at first!!! I'd just thought that all those people who asked why i'd bought an experts bike as a first bike were just jealous... but i get it now.... It's not a beginners bike really is it LOL It seems like NOTHING happens on the Beta unless you want it to... you open the throttle at low speeds and it just trundles along nice and smooth. To shoot off into the distance... you have to tell it to with your wrist and be agressive on the throttle. I agree that things get more lively up the rev range, but theres none of the "jees hold on guys here we go" feeling i can get with the 4RT if im a tiny bit off with my throttle control. The Beta is SO much more beginner friendly..... Fact is that on my 4RT with a "normal" map, you only have to blip the throttle and you are on one wheel. I realise now im actually using the clutch on the 4RT to "power down" the agressive delivery at slow speeds. You only have to breath on it to be jumping up things. I can see that for an expert thats what you need - instant grunt everywhere. No wonder people who have had 2 strokes go for the "soft" map when they switch to a 4RT!!! It must be like getting on a rocket ship!!! Then there's the steering. Mines nice and pointy no complaints - but the Beta feels like it has a steering damper on it in comparison!! If i hit a rock on the 4RT the handlebars react, and ive gone over those bars cause i wasnt holding on hard enough a few times. This is no where near as prominant on the Beta - it just carries on like its on auto pilot. As a beginner i'd have found it so much easier to live with. If anyone who's new to the world of trials asks you if a 4RT is a good beginners bike.... the answer should always be "yes, but try a 2 stroke first"... cause honestly - the bikes a brute compared to a 2 stroke The two strokes a pussy in comparison ([/flame suit on]). LOL Now i get it (one year on) LOL Jza It has nothing to do with 4-stroke versus 2-stroke. It is the Montesa's fuel injection that creates the issue you describe. It is so crisp, and responsive, that you MUST have excellent throttle control in order to ride one smoothly. This skill is something that beginners just don't have. In fact, it is something that many skilled riders still don't have. I have had two Scorpa 4-stroke, and am now on 2008 Beta 4-stroke. Both of these bikes still use carburators. As such, they are a little more lazy in their response, (the Scorpa much more so than the Beta) and that gives you just a little extra time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 DG & ANDY ; perfect responses !!!! (IMHO) Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Yea, you just need the 'soft map" just costs a few quid more!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 It may be a little less obvious then Beta vs Montesa. Don't get me wrong, I love my Beta Rev3 but I've a healthy respect for the Montesa chassis design. I've observed in the past there are a few things that seem like issues with a certain bike that are more setup problems then inherent in the design. If you find your bike is unable to hold a line you may want to take a good look at your suspension setup. An unbalanced suspension front/rear can make it difficult to ride in the choppy stuff. Depending on how you like to ride most trials suspensions will eat up about 1/3 to 1/2 their travel with the rider static on the bike. You'll probably see mechanics off the bike loading and unloading a foot peg to compress the suspension and watching how it reacts. They're looking for a couple of things. Besides the obvious of spring strength they're looking to see how fast the suspension rebounds as well as the balance of the suspension front/rear. Balance of this type is often overlooked by inexperienced tuners even though is of tremendous importance. Think about having a perfectly tuned front fork. Every hit of the front wheel is absorbed properly. The initial compression involves only the wheel mass and the chassis and rider weight are slowly integrated into the system as the spring releases the stored energy. As the same hit passes under the back wheel the rear suspension with way too much preload transmits rather then absorbs the impact. This causes the rear wheel to lift a much greater percentage of the weight of the rider and bike in a much shorter time span then if the rear suspension was tuned properly. With a step of decent size the fact that the rear suspension is too stiff can transfer considerable energy to the forks as a rotational torque. The abruptness of this can make the handling of any bike tough to control. The opposite situation can occur with a too soft rear suspension as the front wheel bounces off obstacles and by sheer compressive torque load and unload the rear suspension. With the front and rear suspensions balanced properly there is much less of the rocking horse effect that makes holding a line a full time job. Try the bounce on the peg test for yourself. If you push down on the peg with a foot and the front or back compresses noticeably more then the other you might want to spend a few minutes with the spanners to try to even them out. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Do note the starting position of the adjustments before you start though so you can return to zero if you really over do it. Once they're balanced then you can tweak the preload to taste keeping an eye on the balance. The other thing I've noted is that when a bike is reputed to be too powerful it often isn't the power at all but the delivery that is an issue. As an example I had a '95 Beta Techno with the then "new" DelOrto carburetor. The way the bike came jetted from the factory the pilot jet was about two sizes too big and the main was about two sizes too small and the needle was just right. The bike ran OK and seemed to have plenty of power. In fact it seemed to have too much power and was always spitting me off. I found it was almost impossible to time an obstacle because the bike was bogging slightly off idle until it got to about 1/4 throttle. It would suddenly get very interested in the proceedings and make all kinds of power. This caused me to hit things way too hard as I was afraid to stall and subtle throttle corrections during a maneuver had no effect. At first I thought the bike just made too much power. Unfortunately it was impossible to get jets for that particular carb at the time so I replaced it with a Mikuni. Once jetted properly the bike was a different animal. The mid-range power was still impressive but the ramp up to it was butter smooth. It was possible to flow with the bike rather then hammer into obstacles and if I needed to feather the throttle halfway up a climb to regain traction it could be done without the inevitable wheelie and crash with the DelOrto. The same carb swap was done to a friends '95 with similar results. There's a lot of very good Montesa tuners on here who can help get your bike where it should be. Every bike and rider can benefit from a little custom tuning. Don't settle for less then a properly tuned machine when you don't have to. Once it's setup properly you may still consider switching brands but it won't be because your bike isn't a "good beginners bike" Note to all...some may not agree with these suspension and tuning beliefs but I'd rather try to help a fellow rider then get into a brand war even though I do appreciate the comments about my beloved Betas. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovis Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 i would have gone for the beta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Having run this site for 4 years now, every time I have seen anyone ask for guidance as to which bike, the advice has been to try as many as possible and see what suits the individual. I'm afraid you've nobody to blame, but yourself for not doing so. Sorry mate - did you actually read my post - or just use it as a chance for a snipe LOL I don't have anyone to blame as i have nothing to complain about. I'm merely laughing at the fact that i went in with my blinkers on as a "rookie" and only NOW one year on realise the true facts... My last line about recommending a 4RT says ""yes, but try a 2 stroke first" - i'm actually saying exactly what you've said... albeit without attempting to point score as you've clearly attempted LOL Jza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Sorry mate - did you actually read my post - or just use it as a chance for a snipe LOLI don't have anyone to blame as i have nothing to complain about. I'm merely laughing at the fact that i went in with my blinkers on as a "rookie" and only NOW one year on realise the true facts... My last line about recommending a 4RT says ""yes, but try a 2 stroke first" - i'm actually saying exactly what you've said... albeit without attempting to point score as you've clearly attempted I've no reason to snipe and certainly no reason to point score. I own the site - what could I possibly have to gain? My concerns arise from you stating you got bad or incorrect advice on this website. "I was completely new to trials before i bought a Montesa 4RT on the recommendations of owner and people on this site about a year ago." I cannot find any topic or post where you sought the advice of Trials Central users regarding your choice of bike. You joined these forums on January 22nd 2007 and made your first post on January 23rd 2007 stating "Just bought a new (well new to me) 4RT." The advice given on this site is, in my extensive experience, pretty damned good and is given freely by a friendly and knowledegable community - particularly when it comes to newcomers to the sport as everyone wants to encourage newcomers. By saying you got bad or incorrect advice on Trials Central when it appears you never even asked, understandably, annoys me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highland lassie Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning...oh, and yesterday too!! Where's yer Christmas spirit Webmaster?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning...oh, and yesterday too!! Where's yer Christmas spirit Webmaster?!! I have plenty! I'm just very protective of TC and don't like seeing people blame it or its users for things they're not guilty of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofasttim Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Regularly we have somebody come on here and ask "what's the best bike?". I won't answer the question simply because it's subjective and frequently degenerates into an us vs them argument. As Andy says: "bum a ride on all of them and make up you're own mind" 'cause we can't do it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian r Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Should have bought a 02 270 Pro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 I have plenty! I'm just very protective of TC and don't like seeing people blame it or its users for things they're not guilty of! If it's of any interest to you, the criminal justice system has the same blinkered view as you. I merely changed my sexual activities based on the advice of some of the more regular posters on this forum - Perce, Ishy, to name but a few. But did the police or the judge take that as defence - oh no, they still came down on the side of the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovis Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Regularly we have somebody come on here and ask "what's the best bike?". I won't answer the question simply because it's subjective and frequently degenerates into an us vs them argument. its a beta rev3 250 HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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