Protection, Do We Need It?

[Guest majestyman340]

There may be some misunderstanding. I'm not talking about the traditional English riding armor

Just the usual lightweight and not at all encumbering modern plastic stuff:

All the modern helmets (other than those silly chopper things which I have difficulty classing as helmets) I've seen have padding completely around the ear whether they are open face or full face, so I'm having difficulty seeing how adding the chin bar is going to restrict my hearing. I've never noticed any problem hearing the observer telling me to come ahead into a section, much less being able to detect the engine/exhaust noise. I just went down into the back of my garage (closed door) put my helmet on, and was able to hear tire noise from the cars going by on the street 75 feet away.

I try not to make a habit of letting loose of the bars and waving my hands over my head while in a section and that's about the only time I can think of where the armor restricts my movements. I'f I'm standing and holding the bars as in the photo above (taken at Sears Point at an AHRMA National about 5 years ago) I can't claim to be aware that I'm wearing the upper body armor. It is certainly no more restrictive than the Belstaff or Barbour jackets I've worn, and I think I've seen people pictured wearing those in sections.

I occasionally see other people falling off (even in our not terribly challenging vintage novice lines sometimes fall) so I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person who ever parts company with their bike, even in relatively easy sections.

Maybe Toni Bou needs to have a complete lack of restriction and the ability to hear crickets chirping from 30 paces away when he's riding. He can probably get away with riding trials wearing nothing more than his boots, though if anyone could benefit from some protective gear if they should fall those world class guys look like they could. I don't normally plan my falls or have much control over which portions of my anatomy are going to be impacting specific features of the section (or the bike).

In the white-hot heat of competition for 3rd place Novice riding gear doesn't seem to be a major factor. Other, of course, than picking myself up and thinking "wow, I'm sure sore, and I've still got two more loops to ride."

Ziippy, maybe you know people like that. It wouldn't surprise me that there are people who think that way. But I hang out with the novice riders (which usually seems to be a pretty well subscribed class) and we tend to not have too much ego involved as all we have to do is look at the people riding the 2 line (much less anything harder than that) and then look at our route cards to see that we've got 20 or more points from the easy sections. I suspect that there's a relationship between skill level and falling off in a section, and that the lower the skill level is the easier it is to fall off, even on easier obstacles. I think novice trials riders, even those who don't try stuff significantly beyond their skill level, are probably going to be finding benefit in a higher level of protective gear.

But if someone else wants to ride in a bobble cap and t-shirt that's their call. I remember riders at club trials back in the 70s who liked to dress like that, and there was one instance when a person was looking pretty dazed and bloody after a crash and it was 10-15 minutes before it was safe for him to get back on his bike to ride to the pit area.

Their lack of protective gear doesn't affect me, and my extra pound or two of plastic armor is unlikely to have much of an effect on them.

cheers,

Michael

Have a close look at a proper trials helmet, and you will see its very different to any other sort of open face design, and very very different to a heavy full face MX one. I can see the fact that lots of US riders think they can compete sucessfully at the higher levels of trials, if they are already able to ride MX or enduro, and in this case full protective gear is obviously a very good idea, as crashes are likely to be frequent and sometimes painful.

[michaelmoore]

I'll let people who think they "can compete succuessfully at the higher level of trials" decide what gear is appropriate for them, as they'll have a much better idea than I will of what is appropriate. I will note that gravity tends to not vary with one's trials skill level (in spite of what Toni Bou does on a trials bike to indicate otherwise ) and experts are going to hit the ground as hard as novices. They may not hit the ground as frequently, but I'd expect it to hurt just as much when they do. I'd prefer to not fall at all, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards at this point.

I think most of us are unlikely to be eager to put on our riding gear, stand up on a chair, and then take a dive at the kitchen floor. That's basically what you do when you fall off your trials bike. Sometimes you may get luck and have nice soft dirt or mud to fall on, other times you've got rocks/stumps/motorcycles to fall on.

I like having my own teeth so I'll keep wearing a full face helmet (and my MX helmet weighs 3.5 lbf which doesn't strike me as terribly heavy). I can recall at least one instance in the garage when I wish I'd been wearing a full face helmet. Having a wrench slip and smack you in the mouth is not pleasant.

cheers,

Michael

[tony283]

Generally speaking why not use the "Trials specific" clothing? Why would anyone, other than cost, choose to use something designed for a different sport?

Trials "specific clothing" has come a long way from the traditional peaked cap, barbour suit, and fireman's leather boots with cricket studs in the soles. First there was the helmet law of 73 and all the crap that we wouldn't be able to hear the engine etc, etc. Then we went for the industrial wellie boot and then the lighter riding suits. Since then helmets have come a long, long way and the trials specific helmets offer good protection while being light and comfortable and also cut higher on the neck so that you can look well up the section without any restrictions.

Boots have equally been redesigned for solid ankle and shin protection but could still do with some improvements in the waterproofing area.

Jeans and shirts are adequatedly padded and also offer the room for extra knee protection and braces if that is your need.

Chest protectors are designed for motor cross or enduro where you encounter sharp flying rocks and stones from other rider's back wheels and are not designed to prevent you injuring yourself in a fall!

Trials gloves do not offer much in the way of protection other than insect bites as they are made of such thin material. Most expert class riders if we look at past pictures of events like the Scottish are normally seen bare handed as wet gloves never gripped anything!

Tony

[michaelmoore]

Hi Tony,

Trials specific? I'm not going to wear dirt bike gear while roadracing or my RR leathers while dirt biking. But I don't see that novice level amateur trials riding is basically different from trail riding or enduro riding or vintage MX as far as the protection requirements.

Is there a significant difference in my Malcom Smith "generic off road" riding pants and trials-specific riding pants? Knee cups and some light shin and hip pads don't seem terribly restrictive or likely to prevent me from being able to place the front or rear wheel on the proper line. I've already got Gaerne trials boots and I'll admit they do give much better grip when walking a section than smooth-soled MX boots do and will also make you more surefooted when taking a dab. If you can point me at a full face trials helmet I'll take a look at it, but other than being cut a bit higher in the back I can't see how it could be much different than a modern full face MX helmet. I've got "first face" experience with the usefulness of a full-face offroad helmet and I'm not about to wear an open-face helmet because "I'm only trials riding." They don't call them accidents because they are planned. If falling off were a planned event, I'd definitely try to write them out of the plan for the day.

While chest protectors were designed to keep thrown rocks from denting you, the back armor doesn't come into play until you've fallen off. I can assure you from personal experience that skating along the ground on your back at 15-20 mph is much less injurious in the lightweight MX upper body armor than it is without it! I've slid down a rocky and hard slope without the armor while trials riding out at Carnegie, and I had a nice case of gravel rash across my back from that. That was the last time I went riding on a trials bike without wearing the armor. Getting a handlebar end in the chest when I fall on the bike in a section or landing on my shoulder doesn't seem a big deal when the armor spreads out the blow.

Protective gear is there to protect you. It may vary some with the kind of sport and protection needed. Wearing this newer protective gear is not like bundling up in 1960s American football shoulder pads and baseball catcher's chest and shin guards. If I were expecting Ryan Young to call me on a Monday morning to offer me a sponsored ride there might be some benefit to trading off some protection if it meant I was going to come in first instead of second. That seems unlikely to happen.

Maybe if I can get lots of practice in and become a better trials rider I'll start to notice my riding gear having a negative effect on my scores. But even if that happens I'm probably not going to scale back on the level of protective gear. If someone else decides that a better score is worth an increased chance of injury (slight though it may be) that's their decision to make. They've got to wear the bruises/gravel rash, not me. I've tried wearing bruises and gravel rash and I didn't enjoy doing that, so I'll take steps to avoid them.

cheers,

Michael

[perce]

Hi Tony,

Trials specific? I'm not going to wear dirt bike gear while roadracing or my RR leathers while dirt biking. But I don't see that novice level amateur trials riding is basically different from trail riding or enduro riding or vintage MX as far as the protection requirements.

Is there a significant difference in my Malcom Smith "generic off road" riding pants and trials-specific riding pants? Knee cups and some light shin and hip pads don't seem terribly restrictive or likely to prevent me from being able to place the front or rear wheel on the proper line. I've already got Gaerne trials boots and I'll admit they do give much better grip when walking a section than smooth-soled MX boots do and will also make you more surefooted when taking a dab. If you can point me at a full face trials helmet I'll take a look at it, but other than being cut a bit higher in the back I can't see how it could be much different than a modern full face MX helmet. I've got "first face" experience with the usefulness of a full-face offroad helmet and I'm not about to wear an open-face helmet because "I'm only trials riding." They don't call them accidents because they are planned. If falling off were a planned event, I'd definitely try to write them out of the plan for the day.

While chest protectors were designed to keep thrown rocks from denting you, the back armor doesn't come into play until you've fallen off. I can assure you from personal experience that skating along the ground on your back at 15-20 mph is much less injurious in the lightweight MX upper body armor than it is without it! I've slid down a rocky and hard slope without the armor while trials riding out at Carnegie, and I had a nice case of gravel rash across my back from that. That was the last time I went riding on a trials bike without wearing the armor. Getting a handlebar end in the chest when I fall on the bike in a section or landing on my shoulder doesn't seem a big deal when the armor spreads out the blow.

Protective gear is there to protect you. It may vary some with the kind of sport and protection needed. Wearing this newer protective gear is not like bundling up in 1960s American football shoulder pads and baseball catcher's chest and shin guards. If I were expecting Ryan Young to call me on a Monday morning to offer me a sponsored ride there might be some benefit to trading off some protection if it meant I was going to come in first instead of second. That seems unlikely to happen.

Maybe if I can get lots of practice in and become a better trials rider I'll start to notice my riding gear having a negative effect on my scores. But even if that happens I'm probably not going to scale back on the level of protective gear. If someone else decides that a better score is worth an increased chance of injury (slight though it may be) that's their decision to make. They've got to wear the bruises/gravel rash, not me. I've tried wearing bruises and gravel rash and I didn't enjoy doing that, so I'll take steps to avoid them.

cheers,

Michael

Have you considered knitting for a hobby?

[nigel dabster]

Have you considered knitting for a hobby?

Perhaps with the addition of a full fface helmet this suit may suit?

[michaelmoore]

I did try knitting one time but safety wire is just too hard to work with.

I started racing 36 years ago and so far with trials, MX and roadracing I've kept all the parts functioning (except for one small numb spot on a knee). I intend to try and continue that practice as I'm hoping that I might get another 15-20 years of riding in.

I've learned that "if you don't finish you can't win" is normally how things work and I've seen people lose series championships (or use of their legs or their life) due to injuries from riding. If you are going to engage in a risk sport you ought to make an assessment of the risks and adjust your behavior according to the amount of risk you are comfortable with.

But don't let my appreciation of protective wear designed for use by motorcyclists keep ya'll from doing without. It's no skin off my nose, shoulder, leg, etc.

cheers,

Michael

[Guest majestyman340]

I did try knitting one time but safety wire is just too hard to work with.

I started racing 36 years ago and so far with trials, MX and roadracing I've kept all the parts functioning (except for one small numb spot on a knee). I intend to try and continue that practice as I'm hoping that I might get another 15-20 years of riding in.

I've learned that "if you don't finish you can't win" is normally how things work and I've seen people lose series championships (or use of their legs or their life) due to injuries from riding. If you are going to engage in a risk sport you ought to make an assessment of the risks and adjust your behavior according to the amount of risk you are comfortable with.

But don't let my appreciation of protective wear designed for use by motorcyclists keep ya'll from doing without. It's no skin off my nose, shoulder, leg, etc.

cheers,

Michael

Sorry I must apologise................I thought you were a raw beginner, intent on competing in events that were perhaps a little too difficult for your abilities, hence the full MX riding gear! I wonder have you enjoyed much success in the other forms of sport you mention, and have you had many serious injuries which has perhaps reduced your confidence a little?

[Guest majestyman340]

Hi Tony,

Trials specific? I'm not going to wear dirt bike gear while roadracing or my RR leathers while dirt biking. But I don't see that novice level amateur trials riding is basically different from trail riding or enduro riding or vintage MX as far as the protection requirements.

Is there a significant difference in my Malcom Smith "generic off road" riding pants and trials-specific riding pants? Knee cups and some light shin and hip pads don't seem terribly restrictive or likely to prevent me from being able to place the front or rear wheel on the proper line. I've already got Gaerne trials boots and I'll admit they do give much better grip when walking a section than smooth-soled MX boots do and will also make you more surefooted when taking a dab. If you can point me at a full face trials helmet I'll take a look at it, but other than being cut a bit higher in the back I can't see how it could be much different than a modern full face MX helmet. I've got "first face" experience with the usefulness of a full-face offroad helmet and I'm not about to wear an open-face helmet because "I'm only trials riding." They don't call them accidents because they are planned. If falling off were a planned event, I'd definitely try to write them out of the plan for the day.

While chest protectors were designed to keep thrown rocks from denting you, the back armor doesn't come into play until you've fallen off. I can assure you from personal experience that skating along the ground on your back at 15-20 mph is much less injurious in the lightweight MX upper body armor than it is without it! I've slid down a rocky and hard slope without the armor while trials riding out at Carnegie, and I had a nice case of gravel rash across my back from that. That was the last time I went riding on a trials bike without wearing the armor. Getting a handlebar end in the chest when I fall on the bike in a section or landing on my shoulder doesn't seem a big deal when the armor spreads out the blow.

Protective gear is there to protect you. It may vary some with the kind of sport and protection needed. Wearing this newer protective gear is not like bundling up in 1960s American football shoulder pads and baseball catcher's chest and shin guards. If I were expecting Ryan Young to call me on a Monday morning to offer me a sponsored ride there might be some benefit to trading off some protection if it meant I was going to come in first instead of second. That seems unlikely to happen.

Maybe if I can get lots of practice in and become a better trials rider I'll start to notice my riding gear having a negative effect on my scores. But even if that happens I'm probably not going to scale back on the level of protective gear. If someone else decides that a better score is worth an increased chance of injury (slight though it may be) that's their decision to make. They've got to wear the bruises/gravel rash, not me. I've tried wearing bruises and gravel rash and I didn't enjoy doing that, so I'll take steps to avoid them.

cheers,

Michael

Would a surgeon doing a complicated and difficult operation, choose to wear thick welding gauntlets to protect himself from the sharp scalpels he was using? Wearing MX gear for trials is petty much the same thing, unless your riding is so bad you should probably steer clear of motorcycles anyway. Personally I have been riding trials for nearly 40 yrs, and up to now have suffered nothing more than a few minor scratches from brambles, and a few bruises...............are these AHRMA events in the US harder than our national level events in the UK I wonder?

[zippy]

MichaelMoore Posted Yesterday, 07:36 PM

I started racing 36 years ago and so far with trials, MX and roadracing I've kept all the parts functioning (except for one small numb spot on a knee).

What a coincidence I got a big numb spot on top of my neck.

My post was not directed specifically at anyone individual, I was merely offering an explanation as to why some riders wear extra protection. And that it takes a special individual to ride trials starting out way down there even though we are good at some other motor sport and still go home with a smile and want to do it again next week.

You made a very good point a few posts ago that what protection you choose to wear does not affect others and what they choose to wear or not wear does not affect you.

continue wearing what is comfy for you.

I will stick with my trials helmet, gloves, boots (used given to me by really nice man), ankle braces (messed up an ankle in a crash, coincidentally I was given the boots shortly after hmmmm) and my baggy MX pants zipped off to make shorts. Yes shorts, very comfy and easy to move in.

So maybe I will be like that bloody and dazed guy some day. (again)

[tony283]

Majestyman340,

Just to clarify the severity of AHRMA sections, this is what we normally have. 4 lines, 1 being Modern Classic Experts only which = 1960/70 Open to Center, 2 Premier Classes Experts and Modern Classic Ints = 1960 Open to Center, 3 line Modern Classic Novice and Prem Class Ints/Nov, 4 line beginners only and could be ridden by anyone on a dual sport bike. The NORMAL tendency for AHRMA events is to make the sections TOO easy which often means a single dab is enough to put you down the order!

Like yourself I have been riding a long, long time and apart from some self inflicted "stupidity of youth" situations don't usually come away with more than a series of cuts from desert plants. In all my experience I have never seen anyone need to be taken away from a trial in an Ambulance. A serious accident on a Vintage Trial is more likely to be a stroke or heart attack!!

Tony

[michaelmoore]

Tony, perhaps I am more talented at falling off of a trials bike than you are? I suppose not all talents are good ones to have but everyone has to be good at something. I do need to get better at remembering to fall off the uphill side of the bike instead the downhill side!

I figured this thread was a "lay out how you see things and someone reading all the different viewpoints can have plenty of datat with which to make up their own mind" kind of discussion.

I'm not a "no pain no gain" kind of person. I try to avoid getting hurt, and putting on protective gear when riding is something I do like putting on safety glasses and hearing protection and wearing short sleeves when running my machine tools or keeping a fire extinguisher near the welding bench.

It makes sense to me. I'm aware that not everything that makes sense to me makes sense to other people.

As to how I've done in other aspects of the sport, I've in the past been a decent intermediate level club rider, and the older I get the faster I was (though I do have a couple of boxes of old rr, mx and trials trophies I can drag out if I have to have something to show off). I can usually find someone I can beat, and there is always someone faster than I am. I'm happy to let a faster rider get by, it doesn't hurt my ego any. I think for trials something that is a bit harder than our usual novice #3 lines but not as difficult as the normal #2 lines is probably my comfort spot. I suppose I'm likely to eventually be forced out of the novice ranks and I'll end up three'ing my way through a lot more sections.

cheers,

Michael

[Guest majestyman340]

Tony, perhaps I am more talented at falling off of a trials bike than you are? I suppose not all talents are good ones to have but everyone has to be good at something. I do need to get better at remembering to fall off the uphill side of the bike instead the downhill side!

I figured this thread was a "lay out how you see things and someone reading all the different viewpoints can have plenty of datat with which to make up their own mind" kind of discussion.

I'm not a "no pain no gain" kind of person. I try to avoid getting hurt, and putting on protective gear when riding is something I do like putting on safety glasses and hearing protection and wearing short sleeves when running my machine tools or keeping a fire extinguisher near the welding bench.

It makes sense to me. I'm aware that not everything that makes sense to me makes sense to other people.

As to how I've done in other aspects of the sport, I've in the past been a decent intermediate level club rider, and the older I get the faster I was (though I do have a couple of boxes of old rr, mx and trials trophies I can drag out if I have to have something to show off). I can usually find someone I can beat, and there is always someone faster than I am. I'm happy to let a faster rider get by, it doesn't hurt my ego any. I think for trials something that is a bit harder than our usual novice #3 lines but not as difficult as the normal #2 lines is probably my comfort spot. I suppose I'm likely to eventually be forced out of the novice ranks and I'll end up three'ing my way through a lot more sections.

cheers,

Michael

Why not just try riding a few practice sections without the full MX gear? You will be surprised how much easier you will find things are, and if its possible to try a proper trials helmet, you will notice the fact that you can hear the motor a lot better, will make quite a bit of difference.

[Guest majestyman340]

Majestyman340,

Just to clarify the severity of AHRMA sections, this is what we normally have. 4 lines, 1 being Modern Classic Experts only which = 1960/70 Open to Center, 2 Premier Classes Experts and Modern Classic Ints = 1960 Open to Center, 3 line Modern Classic Novice and Prem Class Ints/Nov, 4 line beginners only and could be ridden by anyone on a dual sport bike. The NORMAL tendency for AHRMA events is to make the sections TOO easy which often means a single dab is enough to put you down the order!

Like yourself I have been riding a long, long time and apart from some self inflicted "stupidity of youth" situations don't usually come away with more than a series of cuts from desert plants. In all my experience I have never seen anyone need to be taken away from a trial in an Ambulance. A serious accident on a Vintage Trial is more likely to be a stroke or heart attack!!

Tony

Sounds like the other extreme to our "traditional" championship, which due to the difficulty of the sections, means that now about 75% of entrants are on modern bikes. Would agree entirely about the accident thing, and cant honestly remember ever hearing of anyone ever sustaining much more than cuts and bruises.

[zippy]

tony283

Today, 09:29 AM

In all my experience I have never seen anyone need to be taken away from a trial in an Ambulance.

I know of 2 people that did get the flashing lights ride to the hospital. The following will probably be an excellent argument FOR the extra gear. First gentleman tried telling his bike it needed to go up the hill to the top, his bike disagreed and rolled down the hill over top of him. The bike broke his nose, broke some ribs and punctured a lung. Gentleman 2 somehow got his face stuck between the bike's frame and a rather large and immobile rock, the result was a crushed cheek bone.

but again somebody said something to the effect of wear what makes sense and is comfortable for you. Decide the amount of risk you are willing to take.