Protection, Do We Need It?

[michaelmoore]

majestyman340, you may have missed my earlier comment that the last time I went out on the trials bike without the body armor I came back with gravel rash across my back. Been there, don't want to do it again. I haven't seen a full-face "trials" helmet yet but it is the same thing. I've got teeth that I probably wouldn't have kept without mouth protection so I'm not riding without mouth protection.

Perhaps that is part of the issue. I've had the value of protective gear demonstrated to me and I am going to pay heed to those lessons. It may be that I'd never have those kinds of incidents happen again. But since I'm aware they do happen I'll make my plans for them. Maybe other people who haven't had that kind of demonstration won't factor that into their decision-making process they way I do.

I don't wear extra gear for the fun of it. It would be nice to be able to go out and ride around with just a cap and t-shirt and jeans when it is 90F (or hotter) weather. But I'm not going to do that. For me trails and trials and MX are all "dirt riding" and I've got standard gear that I've decided makes sense for me to wear when I go "dirt riding."

ZIPPY, those incidents sound like they could be made into a TV show: "When motorcycles attack!!" If you can just fall by yourself it may not come off badly. Getting tangled up in the bike just adds a lot of hard/pointy/heavy/burning items into the mix. I try to remember to not make an attempt to save the bike. If it wants to crash at the same time I do I'd prefer that it go and do it without interfering with my crash.

cheers,

Michael

Edited March 10, 2008 by MichaelMoore

[Guest majestyman340]

majestyman340, you may have missed my earlier comment that the last time I went out on the trials bike without the body armor I came back with gravel rash across my back. Been there, don't want to do it again. I haven't seen a full-face "trials" helmet yet but it is the same thing. I've got teeth that I probably wouldn't have kept without mouth protection so I'm not riding without mouth protection.

Perhaps that is part of the issue. I've had the value of protective gear demonstrated to me and I am going to pay heed to those lessons. It may be that I'd never have those kinds of incidents happen again. But since I'm aware they do happen I'll make my plans for them. Maybe other people who haven't had that kind of demonstration won't factor that into their decision-making process they way I do.

I don't wear extra gear for the fun of it. It would be nice to be able to go out and ride around with just a cap and t-shirt and jeans when it is 90F (or hotter) weather. But I'm not going to do that. For me trails and trials and MX are all "dirt riding" and I've got standard gear that I've decided makes sense for me to wear when I go "dirt riding."

ZIPPY, those incidents sound like they could be made into a TV show: "When motorcycles attack!!" If you can just fall by yourself it may not come off badly. Getting tangled up in the bike just adds a lot of hard/pointy/heavy/burning items into the mix. I try to remember to not make an attempt to save the bike. If it wants to crash at the same time I do I'd prefer that it go and do it without interfering with my crash.

cheers,

Michael

Maybe as you seem just about the only person posting on this thread that appears to get badly hurt, without wearing full MX gear, while you are riding an old twinshock on very easy type sections. then perhaps trials riding is simply not for your?

[michaelmoore]

I suppose that the two people that ZIPPY mentioned who got ambulance rides away from the trials event don't post here.

I've not been crippled by riding trials, motocross or roadracing. But 37+ years of riding allows for some crashes to happen or to see other people damaged in crashes. And if I crash and have scabs for a week, I have some incentive to not have scabs for another week.

Do you know people who are dead or wheelchair pilots or in rehab for extensive time after motorcycle crashes? If not, you may lead a fairly sheltered life. I've known people who fall into all of those categories, many of them racers. Motorcycling is a dangerous pastime. I think it can be safer than horseback riding or riding a bicycle in metropolitan traffic, but that doesn't make it "safe." Not being "safe" doesn't mean that we stop, it means that we take reasonable precautions. But in the last couple of years I think here in Northern California we had someone die at a roadrace track day after falling at a fairly slow speed in the pits. Not even out on the track, just a stupid slow speed crash where they happened to land wrong while wearing full leathers, helmet, boots, gloves and back protector and with an ambulance crew at the track to offer immediate assistance.

As the popular saying goes "**** happens."

Who is more likely to have a serious and unexpected crash, someone learning how to ride trials (or in the "cocky" stage just past that where they think they ride better than they do) or someone who rides at an Expert level? Not the latter I think. How many people ride at the expert level? Probably fewer than ride in the novice/intermediate level.

And how about those minders? If there's no risk in crashing in those big obstacles in a "pro" section, how come they need someone hanging around to grab them "just in case?"

If I could could get consistent enough where I don't have 0, 0, 5 scores for a tough (novice) section and instead have 0, 0, 0 for the three loops then potential injuries might be less of a concern. But clean/clean/oops does happen.

Am I going to attempt to ride modern trials sections? Not a chance. I have some idea of my ability and I'll ride within it. I don't need to risk injuring myself to show "machisimo." If Toni Bou can ride that stuff, more power to him. I'll be happy to marvel at his far from common ability from the sidelines. I suspect there's a reason that most clubman trials riders are not attempting to ride the same sections as Toni Bou. Could it be that they don't want to injure themselves? Could it be that it might be dangerous for someone with less skill than Toni to try and ride some of those sections?

Would you like to make a case that trials is risk free? I'd be interested to see what you have to say. I've spectated (walking) at trials and watched other riders fall off in sections. Some of them didn't feel too good after doing that. I don't think I'm the only person in the world who has ever fallen off a trials bike. I've been lucky to have escaped with significant scabbing and not broken bones or worse.

A prudent person evaluates risks and adjusts their behavior accordingly. I consider myself reasonably prudent, and I've got a reasonable idea of my riding skill, so I adjust my behavior accordingly.

Wear a helmet or pads or knee guards or armor or something a little thicker than the sheerest of gauze or not as you wish. But if you wear boots instead of bedroom slippers, a helmet instead of a flat cap, dirt riding pants that are thicker than your pajamas and maybe have a bit of extra padding in the hip, knee or shin, you don't seem to have a very secure spot to stand on while you tell me that perhaps I shouldn't ride trials because I want to wear just a bit more protection than you do.

I'm wearing about 1.5-2 lbf more protective gear than the typical pro trials rider. That's about 1% of my "ready to ride" weight. It doesn't slow me down, it doesn't make me deaf, it doesn't restrict my movements, it doesn't make me crash, it doesn't make me "5" because it kept me from putting the front wheel where it needed to go instead of 6" off of the correct line.

cheers,

Michael

[Guest majestyman340]

I suppose that the two people that ZIPPY mentioned who got ambulance rides away from the trials event don't post here.

I've not been crippled by riding trials, motocross or roadracing. But 37+ years of riding allows for some crashes to happen or to see other people damaged in crashes. And if I crash and have scabs for a week, I have some incentive to not have scabs for another week.

Do you know people who are dead or wheelchair pilots or in rehab for extensive time after motorcycle crashes? If not, you may lead a fairly sheltered life. I've known people who fall into all of those categories, many of them racers. Motorcycling is a dangerous pastime. I think it can be safer than horseback riding or riding a bicycle in metropolitan traffic, but that doesn't make it "safe." Not being "safe" doesn't mean that we stop, it means that we take reasonable precautions. But in the last couple of years I think here in Northern California we had someone die at a roadrace track day after falling at a fairly slow speed in the pits. Not even out on the track, just a stupid slow speed crash where they happened to land wrong while wearing full leathers, helmet, boots, gloves and back protector and with an ambulance crew at the track to offer immediate assistance.

As the popular saying goes "**** happens."

Who is more likely to have a serious and unexpected crash, someone learning how to ride trials (or in the "cocky" stage just past that where they think they ride better than they do) or someone who rides at an Expert level? Not the latter I think. How many people ride at the expert level? Probably fewer than ride in the novice/intermediate level.

And how about those minders? If there's no risk in crashing in those big obstacles in a "pro" section, how come they need someone hanging around to grab them "just in case?"

If I could could get consistent enough where I don't have 0, 0, 5 scores for a tough (novice) section and instead have 0, 0, 0 for the three loops then potential injuries might be less of a concern. But clean/clean/oops does happen.

Am I going to attempt to ride modern trials sections? Not a chance. I have some idea of my ability and I'll ride within it. I don't need to risk injuring myself to show "machisimo." If Toni Bou can ride that stuff, more power to him. I'll be happy to marvel at his far from common ability from the sidelines. I suspect there's a reason that most clubman trials riders are not attempting to ride the same sections as Toni Bou. Could it be that they don't want to injure themselves? Could it be that it might be dangerous for someone with less skill than Toni to try and ride some of those sections?

Would you like to make a case that trials is risk free? I'd be interested to see what you have to say. I've spectated (walking) at trials and watched other riders fall off in sections. Some of them didn't feel too good after doing that. I don't think I'm the only person in the world who has ever fallen off a trials bike. I've been lucky to have escaped with significant scabbing and not broken bones or worse.

A prudent person evaluates risks and adjusts their behavior accordingly. I consider myself reasonably prudent, and I've got a reasonable idea of my riding skill, so I adjust my behavior accordingly.

Wear a helmet or pads or knee guards or armor or something a little thicker than the sheerest of gauze or not as you wish. But if you wear boots instead of bedroom slippers, a helmet instead of a flat cap, dirt riding pants that are thicker than your pajamas and maybe have a bit of extra padding in the hip, knee or shin, you don't seem to have a very secure spot to stand on while you tell me that perhaps I shouldn't ride trials because I want to wear just a bit more protection than you do.

I'm wearing about 1.5-2 lbf more protective gear than the typical pro trials rider. That's about 1% of my "ready to ride" weight. It doesn't slow me down, it doesn't make me deaf, it doesn't restrict my movements, it doesn't make me crash, it doesn't make me "5" because it kept me from putting the front wheel where it needed to go instead of 6" off of the correct line.

cheers,

Michael

Are your bike handling skills so very limited even after 37 years of riding all sorts of different competition events, that you are not capable of safely coping with sections designed for rigid BSA Gold Stars, on what looks like a fairly well tricked up KT250?

[zippy]

Holy cow Majestyman340,

this is turning into a skill bashing instead of what type of protection do you wear?

Geez, so what if Micheal chooses to wear more gear than most, is it that horrible to know that some one wears more than you do to ride trials. Are you going to tell me that wearing swim shorts is too much coverage and I should go to the beach in Speedos (please don't it is not a pretty picture)

Let it go man,

At least Micheal has the decency to say that others should wear what they choose, I may not agree with him on the amount of gear to wear when riding but at least he is being a gentleman in expressing his views.

Edited March 11, 2008 by ZIPPY

[drhud]

Hey Michael, in your defense, I wear motox pants and knee guards, and sometimes when were practicing on very rocky terrain, I'll wear a chest protector. Why? because I have them from moto and woods racing and they work. I do wear a trials helmet and boots. For someone to say motocross gear restricts you is crazy. Look at free style riders, they contort themselves way more than a trials rider. Moto and cross country guys also move around alot.

A riding buddy will attempt just about anything, especialy big obstacles with big consequences. As often as he crashes, he always comes out unscathed. He has "regular" trials gear accept the pants, which are moto. He simply doesn't get hurt. I, on the other hand, break easily. Why not be prepared for it? I know one mistepped dab or one extra grab of the throttle, or one missed grab by your "minder" could result in a nasty crash. $%^& happens.

If your that good, that your not going to crash, why wear a helmet? Even the pros crash, anyone see the Bou indoor crash? Sure he came back to win, thats part of being mentally tough, but thats also his job. I have to be able to go to work tomorrow.

If your not crashing, your not trying.

I could show you sections where we ride, that if you attempt some of them and don't make it, your going to get hurt. I'm not saying I do them, but they have been done.

Bottom line, wear what your comfortable with and go enjoy the sport. What happened to the friendly trials community??

[Guest majestyman340]

Holy cow Majestyman340,

this is turning into a skill bashing instead of what type of protection do you wear?

Geez, so what if Micheal chooses to wear more gear than most, is it that horrible to know that some one wears more than you do to ride trials. Are you going to tell me that wearing swim shorts is too much coverage and I should go to the beach in Speedos (please don't it is not a pretty picture)

Let it go man,

At least Micheal has the decency to say that others should wear what they choose, I may not agree with him on the amount of gear to wear when riding but at least he is being a gentleman in expressing his views.

I think Mike would enjoy his riding a whole lot more, and improve greatly if he tried appropriate riding gear, rather than what he is using at the moment. I am very much a wobbler/novice type of rider, and certainly fall off now and again, but even though I have been riding almost continously in most types of event, all I have suffered is cuts and bruises. Sorry if I undermined Mikes riding skills................I would imagine he is probably a whole lot better than me!

[michaelmoore]

OK, let's step back for a moment. The question is "protection, do we need it?"

1. Does trials have a potential for injury?

2. If yes, does it have a potential for serious injury?

3. If there is a potential for minor or serious injury, is there protective gear that can act to reduce the level of injury or eliminate it entirely?

4. If there is riding gear like that, can it be worn while competing in trials without giving the effect of putting a bag over your head and tieing at least one hand behind your back?

The answer to 1 seems to very obviously be "yes." I've gotten significant scabbing from falling off a trials bike while wearing just a riding jersey so it is possible to have at least minor injuries like that. Even minor injuries can be annoyingly uncomfortable for several days.

2 is obviously "yes" unless ZIPPY is totally mistaken in his recollection of several different trials event accidents that resulted in serious injury.

3 is a no brainer as all you have to do is pick up a catalog of off-road riding gear to find assorted boots, gloves, pants, helmets, armor, braces etc made specifically to reduce the likelihood of injury, or to reduce the seriousness of an injury while dirt riding.

There seems to be some room for discussion of 4. DrHUd and I both have worn higher levels of protective gear than is the norm in trials events, and neither of us seems to find it a hindrance. I don't think I've yet seen anyone post "yes, I did try wearing all of that and it made me fall down before I even got on the bike, and once I got on the bike I fell down twice" or anything like that. Is this one of those "everyone knows that a MX helmet and lighweight plastic upper armor will always be detrimental to anyone's scores if worn in a trial" common knowledge things?

I'll say it again -- wearing my standard off-road riding helmet and lightweight armor doesn't hinder my riding in the slightest. I've ridden trials both with and without the upper body armor and there was no detectable difference in my ability (or inability) to clean any given section. None, zip, zilch, nada, zero.

Maybe someone might find it a problem, but that doesn't seem to have been reported in this thread, other than a mention about having more cutaway at the back of the neck of a trials helmet may be useful at times. Then again, having something to protect your face is useful at times.

Shoot, putting on my seatbelt before I back the van out of the driveway somewhat restricts my ability to move freely in the van, and it has been a good 7 or 8 years (IIRC) since I had a van totaled by someone running a stopsign (no injury to me). Perhaps I should remove the seatbelts as accidents don't happen very often, and in any event I've never been injured in an auto accident where I've been driving? I don't think so.

"If you've got a $10 head wear a $10 helmet, if your head is worth more, wear a Bell." That ad was current when I started riding and I did wear a Bell. Maybe I'm just not competitive enough, since I'm unwilling to give up protective gear (that has proven itself to me to be of benefit) in order to help me to rocket to the upper echelons of the Novice club trials rider ranks.

"Dress for the crash and not the ride" makes sense to me. It makes sense to people I know. It apparently doesn't make sense to everyone. I think that trials riders could take a little bit more reasonable precautions and reduce their chances of injury without hurting their scores in an event. I don't like seeing people get hurt. But since I've been unable to get everyone in the world to understand that they'd usually be best off following my advice I'll just make an attempt to explain my view and hope that it at minimum gets people to actually consider the issue and make some sort of informed decision about it. Once people have made an informed decision I'll respect that. I may think they are woefully mistaken but I'll respect their right to make that decision.

cheers,

Michael

[nigel dabster]

OK, let's step back for a moment. The question is "protection, do we need it?"

1. Does stepping outside have a potential for injury?

2. If yes, does it have a potential for serious injury?

3. If there is a potential for minor or serious injury, is there protective gear that can act to reduce the level of injury or eliminate it entirely?

4. If there is protective gear like that, can it be worn while walkingwithout giving the effect of putting a bag over your head and tieing at least one hand behind your back?

[Guest majestyman340]

OK, let's step back for a moment. The question is "protection, do we need it?"

1. Does trials have a potential for injury?

2. If yes, does it have a potential for serious injury?

3. If there is a potential for minor or serious injury, is there protective gear that can act to reduce the level of injury or eliminate it entirely?

4. If there is riding gear like that, can it be worn while competing in trials without giving the effect of putting a bag over your head and tieing at least one hand behind your back?

The answer to 1 seems to very obviously be "yes." I've gotten significant scabbing from falling off a trials bike while wearing just a riding jersey so it is possible to have at least minor injuries like that. Even minor injuries can be annoyingly uncomfortable for several days.

2 is obviously "yes" unless ZIPPY is totally mistaken in his recollection of several different trials event accidents that resulted in serious injury.

3 is a no brainer as all you have to do is pick up a catalog of off-road riding gear to find assorted boots, gloves, pants, helmets, armor, braces etc made specifically to reduce the likelihood of injury, or to reduce the seriousness of an injury while dirt riding.

There seems to be some room for discussion of 4. DrHUd and I both have worn higher levels of protective gear than is the norm in trials events, and neither of us seems to find it a hindrance. I don't think I've yet seen anyone post "yes, I did try wearing all of that and it made me fall down before I even got on the bike, and once I got on the bike I fell down twice" or anything like that. Is this one of those "everyone knows that a MX helmet and lighweight plastic upper armor will always be detrimental to anyone's scores if worn in a trial" common knowledge things?

I'll say it again -- wearing my standard off-road riding helmet and lightweight armor doesn't hinder my riding in the slightest. I've ridden trials both with and without the upper body armor and there was no detectable difference in my ability (or inability) to clean any given section. None, zip, zilch, nada, zero.

Maybe someone might find it a problem, but that doesn't seem to have been reported in this thread, other than a mention about having more cutaway at the back of the neck of a trials helmet may be useful at times. Then again, having something to protect your face is useful at times.

Shoot, putting on my seatbelt before I back the van out of the driveway somewhat restricts my ability to move freely in the van, and it has been a good 7 or 8 years (IIRC) since I had a van totaled by someone running a stopsign (no injury to me). Perhaps I should remove the seatbelts as accidents don't happen very often, and in any event I've never been injured in an auto accident where I've been driving? I don't think so.

"If you've got a $10 head wear a $10 helmet, if your head is worth more, wear a Bell." That ad was current when I started riding and I did wear a Bell. Maybe I'm just not competitive enough, since I'm unwilling to give up protective gear (that has proven itself to me to be of benefit) in order to help me to rocket to the upper echelons of the Novice club trials rider ranks.

"Dress for the crash and not the ride" makes sense to me. It makes sense to people I know. It apparently doesn't make sense to everyone. I think that trials riders could take a little bit more reasonable precautions and reduce their chances of injury without hurting their scores in an event. I don't like seeing people get hurt. But since I've been unable to get everyone in the world to understand that they'd usually be best off following my advice I'll just make an attempt to explain my view and hope that it at minimum gets people to actually consider the issue and make some sort of informed decision about it. Once people have made an informed decision I'll respect that. I may think they are woefully mistaken but I'll respect their right to make that decision.

cheers,

Michael

I wonder have you ever tried proper trials riding gear? If not then have a close look at something like a Shoei TR2 trials helmet, and compare specific trials boots to MX ones.............both items are designed very differently to those intended for MX use, and work a whole lot better for serious trials riders.

[zippy]

Just for clarification Micheal did state in an earlier post that he wears trials boots when riding trials but the rest is his normal MX gear.

OK not to be a jerk (although I can be good at it) There has been much mention of "trials specific" gear. What gear is out there that is trials specific?

All I know of are

Helmets

Boots

Gloves, (I use some MX gloves that work really nice and hold up well)

I suppose those tight spandex type pants could be counted as trials specific but I don't see any protection factor to them and there are very few of us that can successfully wear them without looking goofy.

Just wanting to know what is out there.

[toothandnail]

I agree 100% with michealmoore, I'll restate what I said earlier ,

When looking through the results of some club events I was amaised at the # of DNF 's .

How can you get a DNF in trials?

After attending several I think I found out why, it was the lack of protective gear. There were several very mild crashes,and because(in my estimation)the guy landed on a rock or hit his elbow on one, ect. they quit, maybe it was just their ego that got bruised. No one that I saw DNF had equip. problems it was somthing else.

How about looking at it this way if your riding ability is so bad that 1-2 Db quiter helmet,or not being able to tilt your head up another 2 degrees to see the hilltop ,or the extra 1/10 millimeter thickness glove over works your clutch finger,and makes you crash maybe you should drop down a level

Thats about as absurd as thinking a little extra protection will do the same

I doubt that there are very many of us riding at the level that any of these things would change their total score by 1 point , I know it won't mine

[bilc0]

When walking a section,don't just look at an obstacle thinking your going to clear it.Also look around you and decide which side is the best side to step off your bike,i normaly pick the softest side to go.

If your bike look's like it's going to take a dive off a cliff let go,you get no prize's for following the bike.

If them two rule's fail,your clearly ridding the wrong route.

What Injurie's do you have now??

[funtrials]

Seems a bit excessive for a trials bike. Perhaps you need to rethink your speeds through the sections.

I've never seen a trials rider where that much gear. Maybe you could slow down just a bit on the trail between the sections and do away with some (just some) of the gear. Lighter weight will help you ride better in the sections.

If you ride on ROADS between sections, at high speed, well then I guess I can see why all the gear.

Our trials club recommends: helmet, boots, gloves, knee guards. They also say to consider elbow pads. That's all they recommend.

I remember US national champ-class star Keith Adams (who was later age-group national champion) used to ride in TENNIS SHOES!....probably for the lighter weight, possibly better "feel" on the pegs, and more flexibility in the ankle area while riding. But, uh, I DON'T recommend tennis shoes! :-)

[Guest majestyman340]

I agree 100% with michealmoore, I'll restate what I said earlier ,

When looking through the results of some club events I was amaised at the # of DNF 's .

How can you get a DNF in trials?

After attending several I think I found out why, it was the lack of protective gear. There were several very mild crashes,and because(in my estimation)the guy landed on a rock or hit his elbow on one, ect. they quit, maybe it was just their ego that got bruised. No one that I saw DNF had equip. problems it was somthing else.

How about looking at it this way if your riding ability is so bad that 1-2 Db quiter helmet,or not being able to tilt your head up another 2 degrees to see the hilltop ,or the extra 1/10 millimeter thickness glove over works your clutch finger,and makes you crash maybe you should drop down a level

Thats about as absurd as thinking a little extra protection will do the same

I doubt that there are very many of us riding at the level that any of these things would change their total score by 1 point , I know it won't mine

Here in the UK unless they have bike problems or trial is very hard, its almost unheard of for riders not to finish an event, due to injuries picked up due to not wearing full MX gear. For anyone other than a raw beginner, the difference between riding in full MX gear and proper apparel designed for trials is immediately obvious, however if those that favour the MX gear, dont even want to try the trials specific items, then thats fine by me, as long as they dont deride the proper gear without having tried it themselves.