Scottish P65 & Other Event Eligibility

[trialsrfun]

Great Britain has always been a nation of inventive engineers, Richard Trevithick, I.K. Brunel, the Stephensons, R.J. Mitchell the list goes on and on, give them a need or a challenge along with adequate funding and engineering will find a way. This is exactly what is happening in P65/British bike trials at the present time, alter the regulations and they will continue to come up with a new answer to a new challenge. So can anything be done to stop the continuing and rapid change of a sport and hobby many of us enjoy into the two wheeled equivalant of F1.

Every year before and after the Scotttish P65 machine eligibility is discussed over and over but there is never a satisfactory solution, so what if anything can be done?

Well I believe that there is an easy solution that should put the sport back where it belongs and why cannot Scotland lead the way by allowing in the P65 classes all original spec machines and place the modified bikes into a specials class, the overall winner would be riding an original bike, it would mean setting traditional sections but that again would reduce the advantage gained by the riders of modified machines.

Once more the Scottish P65 could be enjoyed by riders of genuine bikes who would once again be competitive. Critics may say but who will scrutineer machines before the trial but they are carrying this out anyway. Both original and modified machines could then be ridden and enjoyed and once more the many older bikes that do not see the light of day would be back in use.

[trickymicky]

Great Britain has always been a nation of inventive engineers, Richard Trevithick, I.K. Brunel, the Stephensons, R.J. Mitchell the list goes on and on, give them a need or a challenge along with adequate funding and engineering will find a way. This is exactly what is happening in P65/British bike trials at the present time, alter the regulations and they will continue to come up with a new answer to a new challenge. So can anything be done to stop the continuing and rapid change of a sport and hobby many of us enjoy into the two wheeled equivalant of F1.

Every year before and after the Scotttish P65 machine eligibility is discussed over and over but there is never a satisfactory solution, so what if anything can be done?

Well I believe that there is an easy solution that should put the sport back where it belongs and why cannot Scotland lead the way by allowing in the P65 classes all original spec machines and place the modified bikes into a specials class, the overall winner would be riding an original bike, it would mean setting traditional sections but that again would reduce the advantage gained by the riders of modified machines.

Once more the Scottish P65 could be enjoyed by riders of genuine bikes who would once again be competitive. Critics may say but who will scrutineer machines before the trial but they are carrying this out anyway. Both original and modified machines could then be ridden and enjoyed and once more the many older bikes that do not see the light of day would be back in use.

If only it was that simple..

For a start its not possible to police what you cant see, so even an apparently 'original spec' bike could get away with modern fork internals and modern ignitions. What scrutineer is going to spot a lightweight replica frame with just slightly altered geometry to give it the edge over the other 'original' bikes? Would period modifications be allowed? If so whose going to decide if they were pre 65 or post 65 mods? Sammy Miller's original Ariel GOV 132 has a high ground clearance short wheelbase frame with oil in it,lightweight hubs,norton forks etc. On the basis of what your proposing it would have to go in the specials class... Few would deny that the Matchless of Len Hutty would deserve a place in your original spec class and he is more than capable of winning the event at its present severity,indeed most of the sections are traditional anyway-thats what its all about...

[totalshell]

I posted previously a similar answer before but we keep going round in circles as if we're deciding if Elvis is alive...

its not hard to say what does or does not qualify..... if it wasnt made pre 65 you cant have it, end of.... the onus of proof falling on the rider that would be documentary contempory evidence, not somebodies recent recollection but only documents from pre 65 themselves HOW HARD WAS THAT...

cant be done??? ask the production car rally drivers who have to carry brochures sales literarture to produce if/ when challenged..

and they said it would be too difficult.... whats next world peace or deciding whose the best looking one in ''Girls Aloud''..

Edited January 23, 2008 by totalshell

[old trials fanatic]

I posted previously a similar answer before but we keep going round in circles as if we're deciding if Elvis is alive...

its not hard to say what does or does not qualify..... if it wasnt made pre 65 you cant have it, end of.... the onus of proof falling on the rider that would be documentary contempory evidence, not somebodies recent recollection but only documents from pre 65 themselves HOW HARD WAS THAT...

cant be done??? ask the production car rally drivers who have to carry brochures sales literarture to produce if/ when challenged..

and they said it would be too difficult.... whats next world peace or deciding whose the best looking one in ''Girls Aloud''..

If it wasnt made pre 65 ??????

So youre all going to ride round on bare rims with no tyres then !!!! Sorry mate but where are you going to buy a Dunlop Trials universal 4 ply tubed tyre , hard as rock , from ????

If people just bother to think it out it just aint possible.

Actually apart from being a good old chestnut to chew over endlessly does it really matter?

Every idea i have heard you can drive a bus through if you put your mind to it.

Sorry mate like your posts but even with your clubs tight rules, tighter than most, there are still people "crossing the line" We all knoe that but your Trials are still getting good entries, like the Scottish, and are still very enjoyable, also like the Scottish, by guys who just want to ride their creation err Pre 65 Trials bike

[big john]

The onus of machine eligibility proof already rests on the rider for Scotland.

The rider makes a declaration in the "Machine Eligibility Form" in that he/she is asked on several items who made it and when.

Under the Make/Model & Year of manufacture, it lists the following and asks specifically the make/manufacturer and approx. year of manufacture:

Front Fork sliders

Fork yolks

Front hub

Rear hub

Frame

Engine

Gearbox

Carb

So what does the rider declare for billet components? e.g. Front Hub:Manufacturer: Self; approx. year of manufacture: last week?

All those components should really all be prior to 31st December 1964? Every single rider who enters, never mind gets an entry to the Pre65 Scottish has to complete this form.

As I have said on many many previous posts, this is a can of worms!

Oh and just for the record in case anybody was wondering, the machine I intend to ride this year, all being well, I have photographic evidence of my bike having been ridden in the 1961 SSDT no. 204, rider Ray Staples from Sidcup and if you doubt my word, check out page 138 of Lochaber Rich Mixture by Ed Stott for proof!

Big John

For those that like big jugs! Here's one...

Edited January 23, 2008 by Big John

[old trials fanatic]

BJ when was that kickstart actually made? what tyres are you using

Nah only kidng mate you know i love a good natter.

Strange innit how this subject gets us all to adopt positions possibly more than any other?

At least i'm gonna be riding the same bike in Robregordo as the Scottish. Now theres another hot potato

Well i need some excuse for you beating me again this year ?

Actually you'll probably beat me at both events. But know what ? i aint bovvered cos i'm just there for the craik (appologies for the spelling).

[wetfeet]

lovely jugs john as john says its up to the RIDERS who when they fill out there regs should be honest with them selfs!! i know thats not going to happen so i think we just have to get on with it.. theres not a lot the motor club can do, and i think its gone past the stage of saying you can ride but you cant just because some one does not like the look of your bike...OTF is right you just cant get 4ply tyres any more and if you can would YOU ride with one on your bike? tricky micky pointed out that Sammy miller was using lighter hubs, Norton forks ect, so it was going on then and has been going on since man first rode a bike, every one wants the best and the easiest bike to ride, but i think this will go on and on and on so until some one comes up with a hard and fast rule for the bikes eligibility it will happen every year so lets just get on and enjoy a great trial in the most stunning place in the world

[big john]

Wetfeet, you have a point! Get on with it indeed (see my usual signature/footer, "J.S.U.&R.")

To be absolutely honest OTF, that very kickstart was on the bike when I bought it (yes I paid money for it) in 1992, specifically to ride in the 1993 Pre65 One Day Scottish! (see following short story)

It's actually a Suzuki kickstart, I think, grafted on to a genuine AMC bottom knuckle, hence the splines are correct!

I had unfortunately to go "cap in hand" to the then trial secretary, Bob Adamson (he's known me since I was about 11 years old) and give up my ride a few weeks before the event, because the bike wasn't fully prepared. I asked politely if I could ride the following year if I worked, yes worked for the club, I offered my services to the trial willingly to observe or just do something useful. Bob came back to me in a week and said, "...fine, so long as you park all the vehicles in the school car park, no bugger wants to do it"

I agreed and true to his word, I got in the following year. I parked cars and trucks and vans from 7.30 until about 11.00 am and still volunteered to help an observer somewhere out on the course.

Oh yes OTF, the word is "craic" but its true, that's what makes the Pre65 Scottish special!

Big John

[old trials fanatic]

BJ It's gonna be a May to die for ininit mate

[big john]

BJ It's gonna be a May to die for ininit mate

TFR!

Big John

[slapshot 3]

I had unfortunately to go "cap in hand" to the then trial secretary, Bob Adamson (he's known me since I was about 11 years old)

Big John

I didn't realise Bob was that old............................

[trialsrfun]

Thank you Totalshell & OTF for your support it is only because we are all passionate about trials that we bother to read & write this drivel. BJ I never thought that you would be the first one in the firing line, quick post a picture of the other side of that fine looking bike to take their minds off it.

I purposely did not include the tyre issue because tyre size* & appearance has not changed, most of us use the same tyre type anyway so at least everything is equal there. The 4 ply tyre question is a non starter because they are obsolete. Tyre technology has moved on, it is difficult to buy a tube type tyre at the moment so tubeless with a tube fitted is about it.

There has always been specially built bikes in trials this adds greatly to the interest I admired the picture in a recent magazine of the 250 BSA built in 1965 by Pat Slinn, much better in appearance and no doubt performance than the std C15T so why did BSA not make something along the same lines?

I admire both the skills of the bike builders & the performance of the finished article but what about the scores of unmodified original bikes that go unused, as trials organisers set the sections to take marks off good riders on suberbly built machines the owners of original spec machines are the real losers.

Continuing developement has brought about the only two changes ever in trials bike design, reduced weight & increased manouverability, compared to this everything else including monoshock, water-cooling, & disk brakes is detail change only and if you doubt this then compare the Gas-Gas ridden now by Adam Raga to that ridden by Jordi Tarres 10 years ago.

In modern trials we all accept this built in obsolecence but classic events are completely different their sole purpose is to enable people to ride the older bikes in competition for pleasure & leisure & this is why anything that can be done to keep these bikes in use must be done at every level in P65/British bike trials competition.

* My 1967 Greeves Anglian was factory fitted with a 19" rear rim they all were, this has obviously had to be changed where can you get a 19" rear trials tyre from now, it is long in the wheelbase, slow to turn quite high and bulky so not in the same league as a special but I still enjoy riding it.

[trialsrfun]

Is no one else really bothered that more & more genuine trials bikes of all types are being put to the back of the garage because the current P65 trials sections are set to take marks off those with modded machinery. I have nothing against these bikes at all but am concerned that so many genuine bikes are not being seen in use.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's

TAF. You still can get 400x19 Dunlop Trials universal tyres NEW from Dunlop. from a Classic tyre supplier. PS and tubed 400x18 and 21.

Regards Charlie.

[woody]

Is no one else really bothered that more & more genuine trials bikes of all types are being put to the back of the garage because the current P65 trials sections are set to take marks off those with modded machinery. I have nothing against these bikes at all but am concerned that so many genuine bikes are not being seen in use.

Why do you say they are set out for modified bikes?

The only trials I've come accross that you need a well modified bike for are some of the rounds in the ACU Classic series. There are one or two where you could still manage on a standard unit or 2-stroke bike but the majority no. However, that is a National championship and is run over one route and has to cater for other classes on that same route (although that has changed this year) so couldn't cater for standard Brit bikes. However there are other series for them (3 national championships....?)

In other events, I don't think the sections are set out for modified bikes. Scotland isn't, you don't need a modified bike for those sections, the fact that people do is their choice. Same people will win it if on modified or standard bikes, scores would be a few marks higher that's all.

We have a local Pre65 club who use 2 routes and where standard bikes are ridden, the Sammy Miller series isn't set out for modified bikes and there is an easier route that is perfectly suitable for original bikes if anyone thinks that the harder route is too much.

The question you have to ask is are the original bikes lying about in sheds and garages because people don't want to ride them because they are bloody awful to ride..... Mick Grant obviously isn't keen on a standard HT5.... People were modifying them back in the 60s to make them better and the bikes that the top riders were on didn't always resemble the production bikes, some being considerably different - GOV 132 for example. So what would you call original when they were modified back then to make them better - ask Malcom Rathmell for his opinion on an old Brit bike and why he has never ridden the Pre65 Scottish on one "they were crap then and they still are so why would I want to ride one of those again".... (or words to that effect)

As I mentioned in another post the riders that used these bikes back in their day are now pushing 60 years old minimum. They are the riders that would look back on these bikes with any degree of nostaligia but in their sixties and seventies they are not going to be as physically able to ride one of the things like they did in their teens or twenties. Apart from Cubs and the 2-strokes the other bikes are big, heavy and unwieldy things, even on straightforward sections.When things go wrong the bike will take over.

These riders haven't got unlimited years left riding, if a Pre65 class is going to continue it has to attract other riders and obviously they are going to be from a different generation and probably won't be interested in riding a standard bike whereas even a slightly modified one would have a certain amount of appeal. I think the silhouette approach is an acceptable one, try and keep it looking reasonable period and accept the mods.

A final thought - what can be considered original anyway - as soon as you fit modern shocks and electronic ignition, alloy bars, originality is lost but no-one seems to think these mods are unacceptable, so where can you draw a line.