Scottish P65 & Other Event Eligibility

[trialsrfun]

Lots of interesting theories and ideas but it is not about riders or who can ride what and not even the P65 Scottish but keeping bikes of a more original spec in competitive use.

If someone adds two rear shocks to a mono and enters the twinshock class they then have the same advantage as enjoyed by the rider of a modern P65 bike against a more original model, there is a huge competitive advantage and this cannot be in the long term inetersts of classic bike trials.

[tdht]

I think the issue is popularity - they could make everyone ride standard bikes (even tyres if they really wanted to given the previous post re dunlop trials universals) but the entry nos. at trials would plummet. As far as I can tell most of the people who are into classic trials aren't really into old bikes per se - they are into trials and fancy doing sections which aren't going to kill you if you get it wrong. These same people then want the most competetive bike possible and have (seemingly) endless amounts of cash to spend. They also don't want to fanny around restoring a bike themselves, they want as near a new bike as possible with leccy sparks, good brakes etc. etc. Hence lots of folks using new Anglians, otter B40's etc. One thing that really struck me reading classic dirt bike was that all of the fancy bikes they feature weren't built by the owner - I dread to think how much cash people have spent on these things! If you read Don Morleys book on 4 stroke classic trials bikes, all the mods he describes involve a lot of home ingenuity and skill but very little cash. The 80's and 90's pre 65 scene was all about budget trials riding on old clunkers over easy sections. This is no longer the case - its just as much as a cheque book sport as modern trials. As a result the modded bikes have become ridiculous, I was particularly amazed at those 'replica' James frames you can now get. Lets be clear here, they aint replicas cos they have no lugs, the angles are different and they way several pounds less than the last offering from either james or fanny b. And as for billet cub hubs for

Edited February 1, 2008 by TDHT

[slinny]

perhaps what is needed is a.......pre65 class within the pre 65 class !!

[big john]

The question you have to ask is are the original bikes lying about in sheds and garages because people don't want to ride them because they are bloody awful to ride..... Mick Grant obviously isn't keen on a standard HT5.... People were modifying them back in the 60s to make them better and the bikes that the top riders were on didn't always resemble the production bikes, some being considerably different - GOV 132 for example. So what would you call original when they were modified back then to make them better - ask Malcom Rathmell for his opinion on an old Brit bike and why he has never ridden the Pre65 Scottish on one "they were crap then and they still are so why would I want to ride one of those again".... (or words to that effect)

Sorry Woody, not quite accurate, Malcolm Rathmell rode a Tiger Cub at the 1985/86? Pre65 Scottish, I have a photograph of him actually riding it in an Off Road Review or something similar. He actually didn't do too well in the Pre65 if my memory serves me well, he certainly didn't win it and you know Malc, he hates to lose!

I'm not having a go, but he did ride!

Big John

[woody]

I didn't realise he'd ridden it, I picked that up from one of Wrighty's SSDT forums a few years ago when Malcom was the guest speaker. One of the questions was about Pre65 trials and that is when he came out with that comment. Didn't mention (as far as I recall at least) that he had ridden the Pre65 on a cub - possibly because because of the result.......

[woody]

Its a pity that the famous folks from the 60's who now seem to dominate the pre 65 scene don't do some leading by example and compete on exactly the machines used 'in the day', rather than also using heavily tricked up bikes (which their talents surely don't require) Come on Mick Andrews, lets see you do the Scottish on a Panther!

There is no way the likes of Dave Thorpe and co are going to ride uncompetitive standard bikes - they ride to win and to win they need the most competitive bike. He's not going to ride the ACU Classic championship series on a standard Cub and get thrashed by a lesser rider on a more competitive bike. It's just not going to happen - he wants to win the championship.

You're looking for an ideal that doesn't exist I think. If these riders enjoyed riding standard bikes they would be riding them. They don't which is why they ride the modified versions. If it was at all possible to police the use of modern components hidden inside old casings and completely eradicate trick bikes (which it isn't) I think you would see a pronounced reduction in the number of people riding Pre65 events rather than turn out on standard bikes.

Magical has nothing to prove and did turn out on the Douglas?? a couple of years ago in the Pre65 Scottish but even for him it looked an almighty uphill struggle. Not sure whether 'fun' came into it....

I still can't see a problem. With everyone on standard bikes the same riders would win. On their modified bikes, they haven't got an unfair advantage over each other and the rest are never going to win whatever they are riding. You don't need a modified bike to get around the Pre65 Scottish sections, a standard bike will cope but obviously will take more effort. So if people want to ride a standard bike they can, the fact that the front runners are on modified bikes should have no bearing on whether someone else wants to ride their standard bike in the event - surely..??

[big john]

Absolutely right Woody, I was there that evening in the ballroom at the Milton right? If you recall a certain chap also asked why a Sherco had to be kept going with about 100 yards of gaffa tape strapped on it for the SSDT! Malc couldn't understand the statement/question but a few of us twigged what the guy was getting at, waterproofing a modern bike for the Six Days!

Malc seemed to have a spot of amnesia that night when it came to the Pre65 right enough!!!

Don't get me wrong, Malcolm Rathmell has more trials riding talent in his little finger than I have in my whole body and he has achieved far more than I at the sport of trials. But he couldn't get it on with a Tiger Cub the way he thought he could and that's why he is not at all interested.

Big John

[old trials fanatic]

I think the issue is popularity - they could make everyone ride standard bikes (even tyres if they really wanted to given the previous post re dunlop trials universals) but the entry nos. at trials would plummet. As far as I can tell most of the people who are into classic trials aren't really into old bikes per se - they are into trials and fancy doing sections which aren't going to kill you if you get it wrong. These same people then want the most competetive bike possible and have (seemingly) endless amounts of cash to spend. They also don't want to fanny around restoring a bike themselves, they want as near a new bike as possible with leccy sparks, good brakes etc. etc. Hence lots of folks using new Anglians, otter B40's etc. One thing that really struck me reading classic dirt bike was that all of the fancy bikes they feature weren't built by the owner - I dread to think how much cash people have spent on these things! If you read Don Morleys book on 4 stroke classic trials bikes, all the mods he describes involve a lot of home ingenuity and skill but very little cash. The 80's and 90's pre 65 scene was all about budget trials riding on old clunkers over easy sections. This is no longer the case - its just as much as a cheque book sport as modern trials. As a result the modded bikes have become ridiculous, I was particularly amazed at those 'replica' James frames you can now get. Lets be clear here, they aint replicas cos they have no lugs, the angles are different and they way several pounds less than the last offering from either james or fanny b. And as for billet cub hubs for

[tdht]

Fair enough - good for Mick for bucking the system - reading 'classic trials bikes' I think a panther is probably a less accomplished mount than a Douglas but only just! As for the other top riders not riding uncompetetive mounts - the point is their talent means they can do without, I can't believe they are so obsessed with winning pre 65's that they have to bend the rules as much as possible - they have nothing to prove as they did it for real in the 60's. If they aren't prepared to ride a more realistic pre 65 mount then they should enter twin shock class and mix it up with bultacos etc. simple as that. Pre-65 trials is about enjoying old bikes and using your skill to make up for their lack of performance! The specials should go in a different class and it should be up to the riders to be honest about which class they should go in. If people then cheat, the rest of the field will know and their victory will effectively be worthless.

[trialsrfun]

Cooking Today introduced by Nigella Jamieson.

An alternative to the traditional Sunday British Banger.

Because a traditional British banger was harmed in the making of this programme it can only be broadcast after the 9pm watershed.

Ingredients required,

One traditional British Banger

T45

Chrome Molybdenum

Aircraft grade alloys

Titanium

unobtanium

Start by dismembering your traditional British Banger in a well ventilated area, retain just enough of the DNA and parts to give the impression and flavour of the original, seal the area and start adding all the above ingredients as required letting marinate slowly,

once done add traditional colouring then top off with some lettering, this may say Ariel, BSA, James, Triumph or whatever you like then to finish add a Union Flag and a discreet Made in England decal.

[paioli]

And what comes out of the oven

MODERN BRITISH TWINSHOCK

I'VE STUCK BSA ON MINE !

[tdht]

Hmm

there was a very nice 'taco sherpa 350 at the Lanark autojumble on Sunday - only

[trialsrfun]

Nigella, Jamie, Gordon, Keith, Rick & Chalky wish it to be made known that that although the majority of the ingredients used in the above recipe will be very much out of season the skilled chef should be able to blend them in unobtrusively.

[huntmaster]

Interesting thread.

It's nice to see that pre-65 trials is popular enough in the UK to require so much scrutiny!

Across the pond here you might see a handfull of such bikes running at a vintage event... dominated mostly by later twinshock Spanish and Japanese entries. I could probably run fuel injection, disc brakes and inverted forks on my HT5 and never be turned away from an event here, while it's Ceriani forks and Rickman hubs might be a stretch for UK pre-65 events. As has been pointed out, the riders of these bikes aren't necessarilly kids anymore. When I started riding vintage events 20 years ago with my Honda fourstroke there was a regular turnout of Cubs, Triumph twins, C-15s, Bantams....even a Royal Oilfield, at area events! I expect for older riders, as mentioned elsewhere....the prospect of manhandling some of these bikes through a section today is rather daunting.

Anything that encourages them to come out again has to be worth loking at.

Regards, Doug

[beamish owners club]

* My 1967 Greeves Anglian was factory fitted with a 19" rear rim they all were, this has obviously had to be changed where can you get a 19" rear trials tyre from now, it is long in the wheelbase, slow to turn quite high and bulky so not in the same league as a special but I still enjoy riding it.

I have just had the rear wheel of my HT3 rebuilt to remove the 18" Borani rim and fit a 19" chrome rim with a brand new 19" Dunlop trials tyre. However, this bike is not for riding, it's more a piece of Trials history!

It's clear there are defintely two camps here and I can see both sieds but if you do allow heavily modified bikes into Pre65 then you may as well drop it altogether - would it be fair to have the heavily modified bikes to compete against modern monos?

It will rage on without resolution it seems. At least the regs for the Robregordo seem simple enough - air-cooled, 2 shock absorbers, no disc brakes.