ianj Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Hi all, Just interested to know other people's opinions regarding the progress of trials bikes in the past 4 years in comparison to the 4 years previous. Is the difference between the 1996 model bikes and the 2000 model bikes the same as the 2000 to 2004 ? Is progress slowing down, speeding up, the same ? Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofasttim Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Might this be a veiled "what bike should I buy" thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric23 Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 My two cents: things have pretty much slowed down. The 4 strokes will change all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Quite the opposite as I feel sure Sherco, Beta and Gas Gas would have done a good deal more to their 2 stroke if it had not been for the fourstroke RULE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 I don't think 4t developement has slowed Beta or Gas Gas, don't think they have done any, they are trying to change the rule by complaining not complying, three companies have made the effort two don't seem to be. If the extend the dates again, the governing body deserve to get their assets sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianj Posted July 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Might this be a veiled "what bike should I buy" thread? I'm Scottish remember..........so what does "buying" mean? Honestly, I just wondered what others think about the past 8 years...... Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody315 Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Honestly, I just wondered what others think about the past 8 years...... I don't mean to sidetrack your thread here Ian, but as someone who is starting to recreationally ride a trials bike again for the first time in over 20 years, I am amazed at what changes have been brought about in Trials bike technology in that time. Your question makes me wonder.........Just what will a Trials bike be like in another 20 years?! I'm guessing it will be 98% carbon fiber or some other (maybe yet to be invented?) hi-tech material, possibly a ceramic and plastic engine using fuel cell technology?? Ha, who knows. Something to ponder over a couple of cold ones someday. Regards, Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Ian I think progress has slowed down, I ride a 2000 Sherco and it's so much easier to ride than my old TY250(doesn't make me any better though ) , I had a go on my mates 2002 Sherco and the differences are very minor a few tweaks here and there and a better paint job. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtt Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 I think I have to go with Dabster on this one. Why would a company put more development into present 2 stroke designs when they know that the governing body is going to kick them out anyways? I personally hope they change the new rule to be science based. That is based on actual emissions, not some pie in the sky idea that 4strokes will save the world. Direct injection 2 strokes have already been proven. Evinrude outboards apparently has a new line of them that produce lower emissions than the 4S, more power, lighter weight...and better fuel economy to boot. I heard a rumour that GasGas is working in just that direction, perhaps Beta is thinking on the same lines. Now, THAT would make things interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 I personally hope they change the new rule to be science based. That is based on actual emissions, not some pie in the sky idea that 4strokes will save the world. Direct injection 2 strokes have already been proven. Evinrude outboards apparently has a new line of them that produce lower emissions than the 4S, more power, lighter weight...and better fuel economy to boot. The proposed rule changes were based on the machines meeting the emission standard, not if they were two stroke or four. The new HONTESA is fuel injected, if it was more practical to clean up the two stroke with fuel injection wouldn't they have done that. I keep seeing posts about x company developing clean running two cycle engines that beat the emission rules, where are the pictures and emission test results ? 05 should open a few eyes one way and another, Raga will be on (to some) the lightest and best two stroke ever built, and his closest competition will be on big fat slow four bangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Answering Ian's question first - from my experience changing from a '97 TYZ to an '04 200 Sherco I do think that most of the difference happened between 96 and 00. I know that the Z was at the end of it's development and gassers etc were lighter and much less bulky by then. I came from a 250 mono Yam onto the Z and I doubt whether the Z improved my riding or more importantly my enjoyment of riding. The change from the Z to the Sherco has definately done both. I doubt whether the Sherco will last anything like as well as either Yam though! On Ishy's point I agree that Raga will probably have the better bike (for world rounds), but I also think that this has been the case for the last couple of years. Wasn't the Pro basically built around Raga with Colomer's help while the existing Mont was built for Colomer and subsequently developed big style? At world level the difference between clean and 5 must be tiny (either you are up the step or not) - does riding an "older" bike sow that 0.5% of doubt in your mind and hold you back? Maybe with Doug this year but not Fuji. How many times has Doug won trials on tie breakers in the past where this year he's lost out to them. Maybe he'll see out his Mont contract for next year then go all out for an 8th win on what he perceives to be the best bike rather than who pays best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Maybe he'll see out his Mont contract for next year then go all out for an 8th win on what he perceives to be the best bike rather than who pays best. Dabber, never underestimate the power of the $$$$$$$$ when a Yorkshireman is involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtt Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 I keep seeing posts about x company developing clean running two cycle engines that beat the emission rules, where are the pictures and emission test results ? Click here Go to the "Direct Injection" button at the top. You answered your "Hontesa" question yourself Ishy...HONDA. They know they have their biggest advantage in the 4 stroke forum, what with the largest R&D budget of any motorcycle manufacturer in the world. It only stands to reason you'd like to compete on "home ground", and with a bigger stick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Your correct JTT a V6 outboard two stroke does have slightly better emissions than the competitions fourstroke in their own tests against other brands. Now WTF has this to do with a single cylinder trials bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin j Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 FWIW: I have some twin shock TY 175 & 250, ride a TY350, son has 96 GG270, daughter has 2000 GG200, and i just rode a friends 04 Sherco 290 last weekend. My totally unscientific opinion, the improvements are still noticeable, but occuring at a declining rate: -the jump from twin shock to TY mono was huge, mainly suspension, quantifying as say a change of 100. -jump from mono to 96 GG, say a change of 50. Mainly in brakes, balance, weight, engine response. But the maintenance in frequency, ease, cost, complexity went up accordingly. -jump from 96 to 2000, say a change of 25 or less. Less weight, 4 puck brakes, other wise close in performance (excluding engine size). -jump from 2000 to the 2004 290, say a change of 10 or 15. Very noticeable in smoothness, balance, precise steering. I'd love one. I will bet they just keep getting better and better, but each improvement is harder and harder to get. Easy to drop a pound off a 200# motorcycle, harder to get from a 150# bike. Ultimately, any of them are better than I am. Its just a lot easier to ride better on the newer stuff. And makes it harder to go back to the old stuff. Someday. . . . . kcj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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