toofasttim Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Direct injection 2 strokes have already been proven. Evinrude outboards apparently has a new line of them that produce lower emissions than the 4S, more power, lighter weight...and better fuel economy to boot. I've thought about direct injection 2s for a long time. What I don't understand is how they lube the big end or if the bottom end is a 4s type (i.e. an oil sump and journal bearings), how they get the air into the barrel? Anybody please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtt Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Tim, here's a pic of one that a company called "REV" out of the US has prototyped. As you can see, it actually looks like a retrofittable setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofasttim Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 OK, injection thru' the head, use the carb as a valve, controlling the air flow. Would be a lot neater if the had a butterfly valve instead of the floatbowl-less carb. How do they lube the big-end? TM hey. Got one in the garage, 125 though. The 250's an animal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtt Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Interesting to see what's out there. Ski Doo also has DI 2 stroke snowmobiles that meet 2006 emission standards as well. By the way, the motor in the picture also meets 2006 EPA standards. Sorry for hijacking the original thread...now back to your regular scheduled program Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomanybikes Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 I personally hope they change the new rule to be science based. That is based on actual emissions, not some pie in the sky idea that 4strokes will save the world. Direct injection 2 strokes have already been proven. Evinrude outboards apparently has a new line of them that produce lower emissions than the 4S, more power, lighter weight...and better fuel economy to boot. The proposed rule changes were based on the machines meeting the emission standard, not if they were two stroke or four. The new HONTESA is fuel injected, if it was more practical to clean up the two stroke with fuel injection wouldn't they have done that. I keep seeing posts about x company developing clean running two cycle engines that beat the emission rules, where are the pictures and emission test results ? 05 should open a few eyes one way and another, Raga will be on (to some) the lightest and best two stroke ever built, and his closest competition will be on big fat slow four bangers. I have to disagree with you Ishy; The rules are all about getting rid of the 2-stroke, not cleaner emissions. Several manufactures have proven this. I know it is commonly believed that a four stroke is cleaner than a two, but this is not the case. If you go to the EPA's webside you will find tests for modern moto-bikes, outboards, and powerequipment and find this is not the case. As far as trials bikes, I doubt if anyone has ever tested them at all since they represent such a small portion of the market. Moto-bike tests should be close enuff to verfy what I am saying. The four stroke laws are just a way for the Nature Nazis to chip away at the logging and powersports industries. As a Sierra clubber mindlessly hikes through the forest, the first thing that disgusts him is the blight of the clear cut done by loggers with chainsaws. Walking through miles of clear cut can give anyone a bad attitude. Then after wasting your weekend walking through miles of clear cut just to enjoy a little bit of nature some bloke on a motorcycle flys by you and you relize that hes enjoyed much more of mother nature in much less time. This would be enough to p*** off even the wimpiest of Geeners off. Being a mindless boring activity, hiking provides the Nature Nazi lots of time to think. Think about how he can eliminate his nemisis, the loggers and the motorcycles. Dispite all the resources behind him and his buddies, (the Sierra Club and the like are multimillion dollar organazations with little or no product produced) he cannot confront the timber and powersports head on. So what weekness do they have in common: the two-stroke engine! True or not, (NOT!) it is common knowledge that the two stoke must be dirty. Get rid of the two stoke and you strike a blow against the logging AND powersports industy. Brilliant no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Some make things happen, some watch things happen, and some wonder what happened. This is a snip from the Sherco press release. [Q] Because the engineers were able to start with a clean sheet of paper and not have to modify an existing engine design, they were able to develop a superior engine that is specifically designed for the trials application. The result is the creation of a motorcycle which will undoubtedly set a new standard in trials in the future.[end quote] We are talking trials bikes, and comparing snow mobiles, boats, MX, road and even the odd mention of a chain saw, of all the applications a four stroke motor could be used for competition, I think trials is one of the best suited for the characteristics. I think the bikes will be fine and am not worried one bit what I ride 2 or 4 so long as I am riding trials, we will know for sure how good or bad they are in a short time, I wonder if my sponsorship will drop-off if I don't do as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Well Ishy, I have to aggree with you about some things. After riding your little Scorpa, I think that the 4s are going to be great! I also agree that the characteristics of the 4s tend to suit our terrain here in the NW. But, I also agree with this idea of the 4s being more enviromentally friendly! I've always thought it was crap! I don't think it's fair to force people into deciding what they ride. I can't see that being good for the sport! I do think it's good though to have a choice! I say bring on the 4s. I have a feeling they are going to be brilliant! My little ride on your bike has totally changed my excitement level. Can't wait to try a ride on the new Sherco! I love my 2s and have always been a 2s fan. But, choice and new technology has always been good for everyone! Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtt Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 I think your right Ishy that trials is probably as good a place for 4S engine characteristics as any application. I'm not meaning to slag the 4S, just their forced demise. I personally would like to have the choice, as I presently do with enduro/MX bikes (but not for long). I'm just get tired of hearing all the BS about "4S is the only way to go", "2S can't be competitive"...bla, bla, bla from the MX mags for the past 4 years. It's nothing by marketing, at best...and I see the same thing starting with the new trials machines. Bottom line is the 4S is going to suit the riding styles of some riders better, but the 2S will also suit some better. I, like Steve, just want the choice to make for myself. On a side note, I just received the "Sherco Newsletter" last night and the pic they have of the new 4S does not appear to be a 4S?? Sure looks like a 290 to me....stange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 I asked Dougie his opinion of the 4S Monty yesterday and he has only ridden prototype which he says is the retail machine that we will get. He hasn't ridden HIS WC bike yet so can't comment. The bottom line was that he doesn't know how the bike will do yet at world level but he says the bike is very smooth and well suited to the less spectacular clubman sections and especially slippy stuff. Quote "not sure how it will be on a 6 foot step though" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomanybikes Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 [Q] Because the engineers were able to start with a clean sheet of paper and not have to modify an existing engine design, they were able to develop a superior engine that is specifically designed for the trials application. The result is the creation of a motorcycle which will undoubtedly set a new standard in trials in the future.[end quote] That quote could be from any trials manufacturer. Take trials out and it could be from any motorcycle manufacturer. Take trials and motorcycle out .... I hope Sherco is hard at R & D because the boilerplate they make their press releses out of, ant so fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the artist formerly known as ish Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 Hey Toomany, this weekend when you were about the greenies conspiring to stop you riding your two stroke, I was out enjoying a trial on the polution solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 I asked Dougie his opinion of the 4S Monty yesterday and he has only ridden prototype which he says is the retail machine that we will get. He hasn't ridden HIS WC bike yet so can't comment. The bottom line was that he doesn't know how the bike will do yet at world level but he says the bike is very smooth and well suited to the less spectacular clubman sections and especially slippy stuff. Quote "not sure how it will be on a 6 foot step though" Sounds like a TLR to me......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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