Rules?

[Guest majestyman340]

Anyone think it would be a good idea to introduce rules to prevent twinshock going the same way as P65, or failing that to introduce a specials class where it would be quite ok to ride converted monoshocks, or expensive custom made hybrids built using parts from later bikes?

[tony283]

We seem to be going through the same "growing pains" on this side of the Atlantic and so far the only positive set of rules we have is from our newest organization ITSA.

AHRMA does not allow any machine in competition post 1979 which of course excludes all the SWM's, Cagivas/Merlins, Italjet, Fantics etc. These machines have absolutely NOWHERE to ride unless you compete in the same classes as modern monoshocks. ITSA (International Twin Shock Association) has a class for these "banned" machines and it also encompasses "specials" within the same class, the only rules for THIS class are

Twin Shock

Air Cooled Engine

Drum Brakes

I have an article on my blog "The Twinshock Movement" which deals with all our current rules and a few of my thoughts.

Tony

[Guest majestyman340]

We seem to be going through the same "growing pains" on this side of the Atlantic and so far the only positive set of rules we have is from our newest organization ITSA.

AHRMA does not allow any machine in competition post 1979 which of course excludes all the SWM's, Cagivas/Merlins, Italjet, Fantics etc. These machines have absolutely NOWHERE to ride unless you compete in the same classes as modern monoshocks. ITSA (International Twin Shock Association) has a class for these "banned" machines and it also encompasses "specials" within the same class, the only rules for THIS class are

Twin Shock

Air Cooled Engine

Drum Brakes

I have an article on my blog "The Twinshock Movement" which deals with all our current rules and a few of my thoughts.

Tony

Effectively the ITSA rules are what we already run under here for both twinshock and brit twinshock specials classes; which has meant P65 has been ruined by a few riders building ultra trick and extremely costly hybrid machines, and quite a few others trying to imitiate these bikes merely by bolting on lots of questionable after market parts. There are still quite a few P65 riders on more original bikes, but at the higher level events laid out for modern bikes, it would be very difficult for these to cope, so most are on Brit specials costing

[michaelmoore]

Tony, do you know if an "evolution" twin shock class has been proposed to AHRMA any time recently? We've got evoMX classes and evoTrials would seem to be a lot less bother as the sections wouldn't seem to need to be changed as you largely pick your line based on rider skill.

cheers,

Michael

[tony283]

Michael,

The question of post 79 twinshocks has been asked on several occasions and so far has been rejected on the statement "It will mean another class"...... I'm sure the question will continue to be asked as owners of machines in the "banned group" grow. It can also be argued that the 1 line, currently only used by Modern Classic Experts would get a lot more use. We still have a Girder class and to be quite frank there can only be a handfull of riders who own these machines compared to all the post 79 bikes that are currently just sitting around waiting for some fun competitions.

Tony

[michaelmoore]

But AHRMA is all about having a gazillion classes. They just added a 100cc MX class (after lots of pushing from the Hodaka guys) so it is possible to get them to add things. And with trials you aren't trying to find space in the schedule for another grid for a new race, all you'd be doing is seeing some more riders in the queue at each section.

The evoT bikes don't appear to be a huge leap forward from the 1978 bikes. It isn't like going from 4/7" to 12" of suspension on an MXer.

Would having an evoT bike see a 3 or 2 line rider suddenly cleaning everything on the next harder line? It seems unlikely. My one ride on a modern (early 90s GasGas I think) bike didn't see me feeling like I was suddenly ready to ride harder obstacles as it still depended on me pointing it where I thought I wanted it to go.

cheers,

Michael

[t-shock 250]

I do think that the twinshocks should run under "period manufactured" rules, i.e. bikes manufactured upto maybe 1986 or whatever, and a split for pre '79 machines maybe.

What do air-cooled mono riders think about modern air cooled scorpas being ridden in their class? Should these be banned?

[Guest majestyman340]

Twinshock class bikes should be designated as being built before a certain cut off date (86 sounds about right), and all those built after than date or using major parts from newer bikes (forks, chassis parts, engines etc), would run in specials class. Unless rules something on these lines are brought in and adhered to how long before someone builds something like a Miller chassis, fitted with a tricked up RTL motor, and uses it to wipe out the opposition at higher level twinshock events?

[andy m]

I believe the Scorpa a/c monos are quite popular in the ACU Classic series. Have you seen this months YOU HAVE USED WORDS OR A PHRASE WHICH ARE NOT PERMITTED ON THIS WEBSITE. PLEASE DELETE YOUR POST/TOPIC. DO NOT TRY TO CIRCUMVENT THE FILTERS IN PLACE ON THIS WEBSITE? more good press for the little Scorpa. And they are still praising the 125.

[woody]

Unless rules something on these lines are brought in and adhered to how long before someone builds something like a Miller chassis, fitted with a tricked up RTL motor, and uses it to wipe out the opposition at higher level twinshock events?

You're having a laugh aren't you.... The RTL motor is no different from the TLR. That motor in a Miller chassis isn't going to be any better than a standard TLR. A Miller frame kit can hardly be described as a lightweight special or trick.

The only thing they are going to wipe out is their bank balance.

If you're in touch with the Traditional series, you'll know that the better riders and the riders doing the winning are on standard bikes which have been personalised at most. Chris Koch hasn't won one yet on the Yam special. Check the results over the last few years. On many occassions one of these riders has won the event outright, beating the aircooled mono and O/40 class riders on modern bikes - much more competitive and capable bikes than any twinshock hybrid/special.

It's who is riding the bikes that counts. If mid-results riders turn up on specials it isn't going to propel them to the top of the results and to the best of my knowledge, the front runners have no interest in building specials, it's not what they want.

[paioli]

It's who is riding the bikes that counts. If mid-results riders turn up on specials it isn't going to propel them to the top of the results and to the best of my knowledge, the front runners have no interest in building specials, it's not what they want.

I really, really hate to ask this but frount runners, no interest in riding/building specials, when did that appen !!!

[feetupfun]

Woody you said exactly what I was thinking and it reminded me of what happened at the big twinshock trial we hold each November.

The older blokes from the era of twinshock bikes, some riding quite lovely and relatively expensive twinshock bikes and some on whatever was available, all had a fantastic time enjoying our bikes and the atmosphere. At the end of the day it was no surprise that we were all beaten by a young bloke riding his Dad's stock standard TY175.

Our national rules for twinshock class are:

Made before 1986

Air cooled

Drum Brakes

Twinshock

Specific components are not listed in the rules as having to be pre-86 but specials with obviously post-1986 frames and/or motors have been rejected in the past. I haven't seen occasions of later manufacture drum brakes or forks being cause for rejection.

Haven't seen any new (replica or improved) frames yet in twinshock here but replica frames or improved frames similar to original would probably be acceptable to use.

Modified stock frames are common (steering geometry, footpeg location, shockie mounts)

[Guest majestyman340]

You're having a laugh aren't you.... The RTL motor is no different from the TLR. That motor in a Miller chassis isn't going to be any better than a standard TLR. A Miller frame kit can hardly be described as a lightweight special or trick.

The only thing they are going to wipe out is their bank balance.

If you're in touch with the Traditional series, you'll know that the better riders and the riders doing the winning are on standard bikes which have been personalised at most. Chris Koch hasn't won one yet on the Yam special. Check the results over the last few years. On many occassions one of these riders has won the event outright, beating the aircooled mono and O/40 class riders on modern bikes - much more competitive and capable bikes than any twinshock hybrid/special.

It's who is riding the bikes that counts. If mid-results riders turn up on specials it isn't going to propel them to the top of the results and to the best of my knowledge, the front runners have no interest in building specials, it's not what they want.

I am not familiar with the differences between an RTL and TLR motor, but do know the RTL seems to run a whole lot better than the TLR250 I had new! Not having seen the spec of the new updated Miller chassis yet, I wouldnt like to make any comment on it, but the editor of CDB does have inside info and seems very confidant that its going to be very good indeed.

I may be wrong but I thought Chris Koch had won the opening round (Phil King) on the hybrid bike? ......................To me it just seems insane to allow twinshock to go the same way as P65, which will happen without a doubt if the non standard stuff is not restricted to running in a specials class.

[Guest majestyman340]

I really, really hate to ask this but frount runners, no interest in riding/building specials, when did that appen !!!

I wonder if Mr Gaunt would agree with Woodys comment? P65 has been ruined by that type of nonsense, so why support the same thing happening to twinshock?

[Guest majestyman340]

The Aus rules sound sensible stuff, and I think if we had them here at a stroke they would make the hybrid bikes a thing of the past, and certainly spell the end of modified monos and people using mono parts on twinshocks. Something along these lines with the addition of a specials class for the guys spending top dollar on building Brit hybrids, and twinshock specials would I think work very well.