Are the WTC/British sections too long?

[atomant]

Your right about why it was introduced.

However I don think you would see any more of their amazing skills with another 30 seconds.

What would happen in my opinion is that the rider would stop just before the hard bit and spend his additional 30 seconds balancing and hopping before just running out of time then someone would suggest if only it was 2 mins and 30 seconds he would have made it !!!

This section atom ant refers to at the US round, how would you allocate the time the rider spent in the section between hopping / balancing and actual riding ?

If the rider stops and takes too long hopping about then thats taking the pee and why the rule is there of course. If you look at the videos in This Post , you will see section 4. Over the 2 days, some riders got up and then ran out of time on the rest of the section.

To answer your question about time allocation within the section, when the section is quite technical and not very flowing, then it goes without saying that there will be a lot of hopping of course. All depends on the section to be honest. You look at sections 14,15 which were long flowing sections, they were spot on with the riders getting out with around 10 seconds or so left.

The technical ones are by definition the hardest to get the time balance right by the looks of it.

[atomant]

Surely part of the "skill" is to ride the sections within the prescribed time limit. If a rider spends alot of time balancing, hopping and bopping etc. and then gets a five because he has taken too long, then surley he should think to himself, I'll take a proper dab or two here and get a 1 or 2 instead of a 5?

Yes, thats what they do of course, but..... if the section requires riders to 'ride it for a three' because it's deemed too long to ride it as they would normally, then is that what you want to see?

I think you want the riders to be able to have a fair attempt at the section and not be penalised for a difficult but good ride

[bilc0]

Surely part of Trials riding skill's is about the timing,if there going to sit on the peg's somewhere for anhour before they decide to take off into space that's there problem.

[andat]

Surely part of Trials riding skill's is about the timing,if there going to sit on the peg's somewhere for anhour before they decide to take off into space that's there problem.

Spot on. Riders only hop and bop to save putting a foot down. They know the risk: hop and bob = more time, take a dab or two and you might save a five

[andat]

if the section requires riders to 'ride it for a three' because it's deemed too long to ride it as they would normally, then is that what you want to see?

AtomAnt, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying (IMHO) that riders at this level (WTC & BTC) have to have, as part of their armoury, not only the technical ability to clean everything thats put in front of them, but also the ability to manage their time allowance and ride with their heads.

[atomant]

AtomAnt, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying (IMHO) that riders at this level (WTC & BTC) have to have, as part of their armoury, not only the technical ability to clean everything thats put in front of them, but also the ability to manage their time allowance and ride with their heads.

And thats my point, 'Managing the time' is exactly what they do! They look at the section before they ride it and think that trying to ride it for a clean will result in running out of time so they dab their way through for a 3. If all the riders do that getting 3's then it neutralise's the section and makes it redundant IMO. Not what the CoC wants or the riders or the spectators.

This happens on just a few sections so its not like this is a major problem. I asked for a discussion to see what people thought about it

[stevec]

Surely part of the "skill" is to ride the sections within the prescribed time limit.

I respectfully disagree. The original intent of the rule wasn't to test rider's time management skills. It was intended to keep things moving along. Would adding 30 seconds have made much of a difference in TN with only 39 riders? It might shorten their first lap inspection/mind-game time somewhat but do they really need to take as long as they do?

[rosey]

Hmm now I know why they have minders

- Tell them when to breathe.

- Tell them the time (ermmm. the big hand is on 12 and the little hand.....)

- And the other stuff like wheel position and catching etc!!!

As some have mentioned they out to consider how long it is going to take and manage their time in the section. The top guys are Professors when it comes to riding skills , but that doesn't mean they are clever enough to manage other things such as time!

I think the time limit is good and when you see a good minder (Like Harold Crawford with Wiggy), they are calm and seem to have a good idea of the section... yep of course there are times when time gets tight but that is the risk you take.

In Ireland I was surprised on one stream section how long riders were taking to turn a corner in the stream with hopping when they could have flicked the front wheel off the side of the stream....But this was early in the section so the 'urgency' was not there then.

The time limit has sorted the WTC trials out for the better I think........ Worse for the observers though!

Edited May 1, 2008 by Rosey

[slapshot 3]

A good few years back now at the German WTC round at Osnabruck one rider a certain Snr Tarres took nearly SIX and a HALF minutes to ride one section.....two weeks later in Czech Republic we have a time limit per section.

Give em two minutes, they'll use two minutes give em more they'll take all they can get.....

[stevec]

Give em two minutes, they'll use two minutes give em more they'll take all they can get.....

That's not entirely the point. There must have been some reasoning behind the 90 second limit when it was calculated years ago. You'd like to think they were allowing for a reasonable amount of time to make it through sections as they were set up back then. I'm not trying to minimize what riders were capable of doing in their day - they were amazing but sections are more difficult today. There are more hits to set up for and that takes time, regardless of whether riders stretch it out or not. Looking at some of today's sections makes you wonder how anybody can make it through in time even without setting up for the big stuff. What's wrong with extending the limit in light of how sections have changed?

I still say that testing time management skills wasn't the original intent of the rule but it certainly has evolved to that point. I'd like to see riders take honest points rather than forced ones because they're tight on time.

[slapshot 3]

That's not entirely the point. There must have been some reasoning behind the 90 second limit when it was calculated years ago.

So what is the point then???

You'd like to think they were allowing for a reasonable amount of time to make it through sections as they were set up back then. I'm not trying to minimize what riders were capable of doing in their day - they were amazing but sections are more difficult today. There are more hits to set up for and that takes time, regardless of whether riders stretch it out or not. Looking at some of today's sections makes you wonder how anybody can make it through in time even without setting up for the big stuff.

When that rule was set up in 1994 (I think) it was to stop riders taking over 5 mins per section nothing more. no fundamental change could take place as it was mid season. The length and style of sections DID NOT CHANGE, the riders just had to up their game.

Your comment about relative difficulty, that day in Germany, Jordi Tarres dropped 18 on his first lap that dropped to FOUR in the second lap, the next rider, Angel Garcia dropped 45, DOUBLE what Jordi lost. Sections were as hard then as they are now relative to the skills of the riders. How many world rounds did you see in the 90's.

What's wrong with extending the limit in light of how sections have changed?

Sections evolve every year, they move to challenge the skills of the riders but do so based on the time limits allowed. If a rider cannot complete the section within the time he fails, simple. It's like the question regarding a 5 on no-stop rules on the SSDT thread just now. Forward motion must be maintained if not it's a 5

I still say that testing time management skills wasn't the original intent of the rule but it certainly has evolved to that point. I'd like to see riders take honest points rather than forced ones because they're tight on time.

This is not about time management........this is about a rider's skills and how they ride a section WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE RULES of the governing body. Simple.....

Edited May 7, 2008 by Slapshot 3

[stevec]

How many world rounds did you see in the 90's.

A couple, many over the years starting with the first Wagner Cup in 1975 and ending with TN last month.

"This is not about time management........this is about a rider's skills and how they ride a section WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE RULES of the governing body. Simple....."

I'm not trying to get into an argument here. I agree that rules are rules but it doesn't hurt to question them now and then. It just seems like timing out gets to be more of a factor as years go by and sections evolve. I guess my point is that I don't think time management should be a skill in trials - it isn't from the regional level down in most cases. Just one person's opinion though, probably because I come from the "no stop" era.

[bilc0]

I guess my point is that I don't think time management should be a skill in trials -

I guess what time they have to complete a section can be seen as putting pressure on the rider,in which case that is a skill in trial's,the one that can keep there head in that situation win's.If there was an open ended time limit your have atleast 5 winner's everytime.