andat Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Watched the 1st day at Lagnaha and saw Dabill get away with a "stop" at the end of the 2nd sub. Its amazing how such a knowledgable crowd applauds what was (IMHO) a clear 5. He must have been stationary parallell to the ends cards for 3-4 seconds before he decided what he was going to do. Are the observers briefed at all about the scoring regieme??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 That sort of thing has happened ever since the trial went back to no-stop in '97. Riders who mess up and get off line, stop and either continue after they've regained their balance or hop their way back into line and carry on, whereas if they continued with forward motion after messing up it would cost them at least a dab to get it back on line without stopping. So what should have been marks lost in a section because they couldn't keep the bike on line (the whole point of no-stop, forward motion at all times...) turns into a clean with the benefit of stopping and going and again. The crowd applaud it and the observer presumably feels pressured into giving the clean. The truth is, the rider messed up, lost their way or whatever, but gets away with it instead of being penalised. If the observing on all sections was correct, (which would then make riders ride proper no-stop) the scores wouldn't be as low as they are - any year. A few years ago I saw one rider on a very difficult section make a complete mockery of the rules. He flicked the bike out of the stream onto the bank. Hopped it round, jumped accross the stream onto the other bank, hopped it round again and launched it over some rocks and out for a clean. Brilliant technique but a 5 at least three times... If he'd stayed in the stream and tried to ride over the rocks as the section intended the score may have been somewhat different. It happens in classic trials too, riders stopping and hopping and getting away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinell Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I'm not picking on Tom Sagar here because the lads/lasses that have this skill do get away with it most of the time... I watched him through the last section at Lagnaha a few years ago and he did a great feet up, hop bop and bounce act to get out of the section for a clean. The crowd cheered and clapped him but it was a definite 5 a good few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I haven't seen the sections so can only comment on What I do. No Matter what the rules if the section cannot be done without hopping, ( A Turn's is too tight, Rock too high to just approach etc.), then a 5 for stopping goes off the list unless it's a complete cock-up!!!! Many clubs do set out sections that cannot be done without stopping despite the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 (edited) Didn't see it but there was a bit of a buzz about that. bike stops forward motion - 5 - should be simple Sections at Lagnaha were really hard however they could all be ridden non stop, many riders showed that Edited May 7, 2008 by Slapshot 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I haven't seen the sections so can only comment on What I do. No Matter what the rules if the section cannot be done without hopping, ( A Turn's is too tight, Rock too high to just approach etc.), then a 5 for stopping goes off the list unless it's a complete cock-up!!!!Many clubs do set out sections that cannot be done without stopping despite the rules. IMHO the sections I saw this year at Lagnaha (and last year at Forest Gate) were all capable of being ridden no-stop. The same section I referred to in my post was cleaned a few minutes later by Austermuhle without any hopping or bopping, just a brilliant piece of skill and a lesson to all who think there is more skill required by hopping and bopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I haven't seen the sections so can only comment on What I do. No Matter what the rules if the section cannot be done without hopping, ( A Turn's is too tight, Rock too high to just approach etc.), then a 5 for stopping goes off the list unless it's a complete cock-up!!!!Many clubs do set out sections that cannot be done without stopping despite the rules. Do you mean 'cannot be done'? Or do you mean 'cannot be done without a dab? We often see riders bouncing in a tight turn when a simple dab would get around the turn without stopping or bouncing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highland lassie Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 (edited) The observers have a full briefing meeting on the Sunday night - the rules are gone over at that stage, and they were particularly well established this year as we've got a whole host of new observers. Until you're actually doing the job I don't think you realise how different observing at the Scottish is to observing at a club trial. The number of people who think it's okay to blether to you when you're trying to watch feet is worrying - there's riders walking the sections, getting in your road, spectators who think it's okay to sit with their feet in the sections, the list goes on. Worst of all are those who know the lot and sit over your shoulder commenting on your scoring. And then you get the 'helpful' friends and family of some of the better known riders who aren't shy about putting pressure on young or inexperienced observers - bullying tactics at their politest at times! I don't think for a minute that there should be anything other than a 5 for stopping moving forward, I just want to make it clear that these observers are sitting on the hill for at least seven hours at a time, putting up with all sorts of grief and interruptions - there are going to be some things that get missed. Similarly with a third of our observers being new to the SSDT this year, you've got to give them a chance to find their feet - don't scare them off by slating their hard work before they've started! If you'd prefer, we'd love the benefit of your experience, so feel free to volunteer next year! Edited May 7, 2008 by Highland Lassie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The observers have a full briefing meeting on the Sunday night - the rules are gone over at that stage, and they were particularly well established this year as we've got a whole host of new observers. Until you're actually doing the job I don't think you realise how different observing at the Scottish is to observing at a club trial. The number of people who think it's okay to blether to you when you're trying to watch feet is worrying - there's riders walking the sections, getting in your road, spectators who think it's okay to sit with their feet in the sections, the list goes on. Worst of all are those who know the lot and sit over your shoulder commenting on your scoring. And then you get the 'helpful' friends and family of some of the better known riders who aren't shy about putting pressure on young or inexperienced observers - bullying tactics at their politest at times! I don't think for a minute that there should be anything other than a 5 for stopping moving forward, I just want to make it clear that these observers are sitting on the hill for at least seven hours at a time, putting up with all sorts of grief and interruptions - there are going to be some things that get missed. Similarly with a third of our observers being new to the SSDT this year, you've got to give them a chance to find their feet - don't scare them off by slating their hard work before they've started! If you'd prefer, we'd love the benefit of your experience, so feel free to volunteer next year! White lady speak with forked tongue...... Watching year on year you can get to the stage where the poor observers are in dire need of minders themselves, EVEN in the P65. Arm them with Tazers or big clubs with nails in them, beat the buggers off. I've watched a certain well know rider has asked son to distract observer while he alters section...... Kid came up to me on Saturday while his old man was riding the section....come on, personally too long in the tooth to fall for that. Its a tough job and you have to respect every single one of these folks. NOW....get back over to SSDT.org and get me some gossip missus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The observers have a full briefing meeting on the Sunday night - the rules are gone over at that stage, and they were particularly well established this year as we've got a whole host of new observers. Until you're actually doing the job I don't think you realise how different observing at the Scottish is to observing at a club trial. The number of people who think it's okay to blether to you when you're trying to watch feet is worrying - there's riders walking the sections, getting in your road, spectators who think it's okay to sit with their feet in the sections, the list goes on. Worst of all are those who know the lot and sit over your shoulder commenting on your scoring. And then you get the 'helpful' friends and family of some of the better known riders who aren't shy about putting pressure on young or inexperienced observers - bullying tactics at their politest at times! I don't think for a minute that there should be anything other than a 5 for stopping moving forward, I just want to make it clear that these observers are sitting on the hill for at least seven hours at a time, putting up with all sorts of grief and interruptions - there are going to be some things that get missed. Similarly with a third of our observers being new to the SSDT this year, you've got to give them a chance to find their feet - don't scare them off by slating their hard work before they've started! If you'd prefer, we'd love the benefit of your experience, so feel free to volunteer next year! Thank you for inviting me to observe at next years trial. I will only be available for two days max and an obscure section with no spectators would be preferable!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highland lassie Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Thank you for inviting me to observe at next years trial. I will only be available for two days max and an obscure section with no spectators would be preferable!!!! Excellent! Consider yourself booked - last sub at Trotters do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Do you mean 'cannot be done'? Or do you mean 'cannot be done without a dab? We often see riders bouncing in a tight turn when a simple dab would get around the turn without stopping or bouncing. The position I take is that it MUST be possible without a dab. I understand HL position on the observers as well. I have lost count of the number of times I get a "that's a five!!!" after a rider has gone through while My view has been obscured by a dozen riders "looking" at a tricky part of the section. Well I'm sorry if I didn't see it I cannot mark it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Just to clarify - my post wasn't criticising observing. It's the riders I get frustrated at, particularly classic trials, not just SSDT, when they know it is a non-stop trial but they still stop hop whatever and expect not to be penalised for it - and wail like babies if they do get penalised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The position I take is that it MUST be possible without a dab. So every section must be capable of being cleaned then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highland lassie Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Just to clarify - my post wasn't criticising observing. I didn't take it as criticism, don't worry....I just get a bit over-protective!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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