Is Trials A Consumable Product?

[northernnorm]

In many ways Trials could be considered a marketable product,that could be why the NATC does an annual rider poll/survey,possibly to improve the brand and gain marketshare.The trouble is they only compare themselves to themselves,which is an admittance to being the only game in town for anyone interested in an AMA series championship placing. Also having the survey after the season is over means any possible improvement is a long wait off. I propose a poll to compare the Natc product to what else is available. So far this season I have been at 3 different major events in the USA. 1st was the Sooner Cup in OK. next the WTC at TTC and then the first 3 rounds of Natc at CO. I will do a comparison using a consumer mindset that would look at Price,Quality and Suitability. For Suitability I will look at the paddock and the actual terrain TTC 8 for pits 9 for terrain Tishomingo 8 and 7 ( great rocks just lacks overall size and variety) CO, 2 for pits(could jump to 5 if water truck was employed) and 9 for terrain(would be 10 if less cactus) For Quality its pretty much a given anything done at the TTC is top notch , The boys in OK did a huge job of making you welcome and being glad to have you,also added some extras like a free BBQ and 2 nights of live country rock.The Natc in CO, very standard just what weve all gotten used to for a US National. well laid out with everything on schedule Now for Price - the WTC riders have no entry fee (although insurance through the AMA at $215 per day rider and minder each pay is required) ,minders pay $40 for the weekend ,in Usa we had to pay $150 to camp whereas overseas that is normally not the case and in fact 4 nights of lodging is now covered for rider and minder. TTC also had the free live music but if there was a BBQ I didnt hear about it. Natc/CO Rider pays $100 per day ( a 67% increase over 2007) and the minder pays $50 per day (again a rise of 67%) also an extra $25 per person to get in the gate and I think $25 a to camp . The Sooner cup had No gate fee No minder fee and a per day rider fee of around $50 maybe less ,and free camping many with electricity. Now add in possible reward which reflects value and we find WTC has no $ payback unless done by the factory team, In OK the organisers got sponsorship and returned over $2500 in Pro payout. Natc/CO if on Podium your reward was a very nice walnut plaque ,exactly like those given the last 2 times an Natc round was held in CO in 2004 and 2007. OK now flame me and call me Lane but maybe some thoughts come up that will benefit all involved.

Edited May 29, 2008 by northernnorm

[rlracer]

Northernnorm I have been to the same events that you described and agree mostly, the boys in southern Oklahoma just have a small place and are working on making it larger. You left out the other event in Oklahoma the October test that happens in the fall, Pat and some of the Pro riders have attended. No flame here.

You do have to commend a club for putting on a 3 day national with the extra sections and checkers ! And yes Colorado could have used a water truck or passed out goggles at the gate.

[northernnorm]

What is the NATC?? If it is run like a big version of a statewide ,local club then it is probably setup as a non profit orginization to avoid some liability and tax issues. When I was Pres. of WOTA I recall almost all of the expenses were directly related to having an event - the cost of sanctioning, materials ,awards,mailings and possibly land use didnt occur if there was not an event, so it would reason that LESS NATC events by 25 % could mean a drop in entries by as much.The effective cost for a PRO to ride is $150 as it would be crazy to ride without a minder (and perhaps having one should be mandatory) I feel strongly either the minder fee be waived effective now or some sort of Payback be implemented escpecially if the class name is to remain "PRO" or both . One other change that I would like to see if there is any support for would be a pre event course inspection or at least a first lap allowance into the section where the minders are able to get a riders eye view of the section to make better decisions on where to spot from,making things safer,as it is quite hard to do that from the perimeters as we must now. The rule to exclude minders until the last second before your rider enters exists so minders dont do too much grooming but there was always a 5 point penalty at hand for observers to check that behavior. If the Natc has so much overhead built in with the annual meeting that they cant function without $10 to 15 thousand per day ,maybe some restructuring is in order. I think there are plenty of us who wonder where the money goes so a quick breakdown would be much appreciated. Again I love the sport and am glad to be able to take part but just thinking if we can all get more involved and maybe add some value to the experience. Cheers

Edited May 29, 2008 by northernnorm

[copemech]

One thing for sure, as the Octobertest and Sooner cup events are about support of the top riders. These events are not easy to do, usually a loss or break even at best in an effort to support and develop the sport, and are unique! And done by some hard core fellows and supporters who work their asses off, for free!

I would like to see a Pro pot, but between insurance and AMA, there is little left! The NATC financials have been released in the past, and this is not a secret! The sponsor clubs may make something(i hope), but that stays in trials!

This years format is also unique, and we shall see, but I cannot see a POT without some type of corporate dollars injected! And this is part of how the OK guys do it all, local business support! Reguardless how small, it all helps!

[alan bechard]

What is the NATC??

Hi Norm, Al Bechard.

If you do a search back through the USA pages here (and some was probably in TA as well) you can see many of the same questions I asked and the responses given.

Short version is really summed up here though.

http://www.natctrials.org/about.htm

My short and summarized version is that the NATC is a group of volunteer riders putting together a national calender.

My other observation is while they will say "we want your input", they only want it in the format they want it in, and only through the folks that they want to hear from.

Still a bit bitter about being told that I could not even attend the meeting at my own expense to observe. Just not how I believe an organisation that is supposed to represent me, oh, and recieves money from me, should act.

That said, there are several avenues open to you to attend the meeting, and you are probably in a pretty unique position to be able to positively influence the structure, outlook and direction of the NATC.

Good luck.

[clarkp]

The NATC is the established statesman, if you will, as a governing body overseeing national trials competition in the US. Dr. Wiltz Wagner and a long list of other dedicated enthusiasts have labored many years behind the scenes to build and maintain an honorable entity in the NATC, and the NATC remains that today. I seriously doubt that any other group, club, clubs, or association could do today what Dr. Wagner and these ambassadors of the sport have done over the years and keep it together and keep it moving forward.

Every year, they do the thankless job of pulling together a disparate group of trials clubs, sorting through differing opinions, egos, and agendas to deliver a competition series that is recognized across the country as the definitive championship for our sport. And every year, individuals praise parts of the series that they like and complain about the parts they don

[northernnorm]

Hi , Al I did read almost everything on the NATC site and havent found a balance sheet which is what many wonder why the need for such income ,also it reads that they try to follow the FIM protocol which would change the way minders are charged and treated as far as section entry. I am not really out to put down the organisation, just want the product value to increase with the cost . We all have been experiencing enough corporate greed with the huge cost of food and fuel rising so thats a factor also.

[axulsuv]

Clarkp ; I think you should copyright your attitude and sell it as a air freshener only to be used at board meetings and such !

I didn't get to attend the sooner , but I would like to get to a event with the format you outlined .

Glenn

And NN your right in my opinion too , there has to be some accountability somewhere ...

[alan bechard]

Hi , Al I did read almost everything on the NATC site and havent found a balance sheet which is what many wonder why the need for such income ,also it reads that they try to follow the FIM protocol which would change the way minders are charged and treated as far as section entry. I am not really out to put down the organisation, just want the product value to increase with the cost . We all have been experiencing enough corporate greed with the huge cost of food and fuel rising so thats a factor also.

I did not follow earlier that you were looking for the $, I was trying to answer the question I quoted,

What is the NATC, and my abbreviated answer would be a group put together to hold the national series. (they fairly recently added the TDN part)

They are not, as I and maybe some others assumed, out to promote trials, unify the rules, be the administrative body for all things trials, or to make it financially viable. These are my abbreviated conclusions based on many discussions with Natc presidents and representatives.

As to where the money goes.

You have a prime opportunity to view that in detail that most folks do not. I believe through Pat's status you have a seat at the table, (or maybe more correctly said, Pat does, but I feel it amounts to the same outcome)

My past experiences with the NATC, the money was well spent and accounted for, and every dime went directly back into the sport.

I think the NATC does what it's mission statement says it will do excellently. I just think it's mission statement should be re-defined, but as I have no dog in the hunt, my thoughts are moot.

As a sidebar, I believe the USMTA was created to adress some of the very topics of promotion and commericialism (for lack of a better term, that I believe is what you would like adressed)

[sirhc]

So, unfortunately, I have no desire to work on another national in Oklahoma (or Texas) unless the format of the event is changed to reflect what a group of dedicated enthusiasts did this year in Oklahoma. The Sooner Cup is not perfect but I think it should be the template for national competitions going forward. I think the NATC would find that it has a lot more clubs willing to host a national competition if this was the format. Otherwise, we will continue to have clubs decline their invitation to host a national, just like what happened this year.

They tried something like that at Donner in 2004. Apparentlly NATC didn't like it and made rules so it couldn't be done again.

As far as money for the pros, as long as they don't fund it with the support riders I'm all for it. Even if they just used the pro entry fee as a pay back would be good. They would then only be loosing 8-9 in riders entry fees. For next season we are even doing that for our local SoCal riders in the top class. There is only 5 of them and it won't amount to much, but their entry fees all go into the "pro purse". If we can do it at the club level there is no reason the NATC can't do it.

I'm not sure what the NATC does with the money, but this is one of the few times I've ever seen where somebody does less work (fewer nationals) then raises the price so their income stays the same.

Edited May 30, 2008 by sirhc

[zippy]

Alan Bechard Posted Today, 03:10 PM

As a sidebar, I believe the USMTA was created to adress some of the very topics of promotion and commericialism (for lack of a better term, that I believe is what you would like adressed)

Yea sure they are doing a bang up job ain't they Ain't heard much from them.

[northernnorm]

Does anyone know if MAV TV is possibly financially able to donate? Last year at Donner the organisers there raised some funds mostly from the importers though so not something likely to happen this year. I wonder also if the NATC assumed a reduction in sign up numbers on total because of travel costs so over estimated what they needed as far as a rate hike ,maybe since there are 90 days before the next round some of these items can be adressed .I thought maybe some of the ceo s might read this board ,but maybe some more direct method is needed.

[bbehling]

The NATC meets once a year, so nothing will get changed mid-stream. The NATC is comprised of leaders from the clubs nationwide, if you are not well represented, then send me an email off-line bbehling125 (at) yahoo.com. I am interested in getting meeting attendance from YOUNG, dedicated riders from clubs that are willing to do the hard work to host a national. Please contact your "local" representative to discuss future uses of any potential surplusses that the NATC may have as a result of our conservative approach to making sure the series will be a financial success for our organizing clubs. Just because something has been a certain way for many years does not mean we can't change it. And, we continue to seek good, reliable volunteers to take on tasks concentrated on assuring a successful series and a successful TdN Team. We appreciate all of the loyal riders that the series has and want to be fair to all when we contemplate changes. Sorry, but I am rarely able to visit this site. Thanks, Brian