Stop Or No Stop?

[andat]

I don't care anymore. I just wish we had fewer sets of rules.

I agree . As for which is the most skilful, IMHO I think riding a severe section no-stop is more skilful than stopping and hopping. Whilst the current "1 for a stop" rules permit stopping & hopping sideways for the loss of less than a 5, it does in principle encourage the skill of no-stop riding.

[bullropebill]

I don't think it will be a problem, when they go to the no start rule.

World rounds, ****ing joke, FIM expect an unpaid enthusiast to put on a professional event, pay hotel bill for thirty posing pillocks and provide them a bike for free while they are at it, how long do you think that can survive.

General public don't give a rats ass if the rider can stop hop or pick buggers while going up a ten foot step. If you like riding no stop events ride em, if you like to being able to stop, ride those events, if you want to make it big on the world scene, STOP ****ING KIDDING THI SEN and get a job.

[lennie]

Stop rules are ****, If i wanted to hop my bike all over the section i would be riding cycle trials.

Just ride the bike, dont bounce all over the palce.

[gizza5]

If you like riding no stop events ride em, if you like to being able to stop, ride those events

And here lies the problem when you turn up at a trial ''Do you actually know what rules you are riding under??''

Not a critisism about your comment, but as many have said I think the majority want the rules sorting out once and for all!

Edited May 30, 2008 by GIZZA5

[dgshannon]

By allowing stopping, the bikes with suitable clutches for stop type riding have become more popular than the others.

Very curious as to which of the vintage bikes have been found to have "suitable clutches for stop type riding"? I have always been pleased with my '74 Cota 247's clutch, as it has a fairly progressive engagement, compared to the lightswitch (on-off) clutch on some other bikes I have tried from the same era.

[scorpa3]

And here lies the problem when you turn up at a trial ''Do you actually know what rules you are riding under??''

Not a critisism about your comment, but as many have said I think the majority want the rules sorting out once and for all!

Exactly. But whilst we choose (are forced) to comply with the FIM - at BTC level - things can always get changed with almost no prior notice..

[dgshannon]

Tough discussion because the skill sets are apples vs. oranges. Overall, stopping and hoping is probably the tougher skillset. I say that because the adoption of those rules has taken the sport into the realm of stupidity. As stated in an earlier posting, there are only a sm ll handfull of folks that can compete at the world level, with those rules. The danger level has just kept rising in order to offer a challenge to a few super humans.

Down at the local club level, there are a few that want to pretend they do what the top guys do, but for the most part it is a completely different sport, trying to follow the same rules. As such, you see club level riders split along the two lines of those that can hop, and those that can't. At the highest level of those who can't hop, you see a skillset that is equally as remakable as that of the "club level" rider who can hop. One is the ability to RIDE a motorcycle and the other is the ability to HOP a motorcycle.

In our local clubs, the highest level of riders, who can't hop, are a formidable bunch. In general, our stop & hop riders, considered to be "more skilled", can't compete against the non-hop guys, on their own turf any more than the non-hop guys could complete with the hoppers, on their turf. The non-hop guys tend to be perfectionists, studying their line before a ride, finding every inch of grace that they can, in a section. They learn to "ride the ribbon", or boundary tape, using all the section for everything it's worth. Like chess, the current move sets up for a key move much later in the section. The hoppers, on the other hand, don't approach a section in the same way. The same corner, that a guy just "rode" around, with considerable skill, they will instead cut short, and go to hopping. One hop, two hops, three hops, dab. On their turf, with MUCH tougher obstacles, that dab is not as critical, and may be made up for elsewhere. But on the home turf of the non-hop rider, you can't afford that dab. At the end of the day, the supposedly higher skilled, hop capable, rider ends up with more points.

Again, it is apples and oranges. Two totally different skill sets. The older riders tend to learn to stop, but not hop. The younger guys jump right in to stop & hop, and never learn to "ride". Because stop & hop has created much more dramatic, and dangerous sections, the skill level is percieved to be higher. But, in a properly laid out non-stop, non-hop, trial you can take a lot of points from those very same guys, without the level of danger that has come into today's sections. Someone said earlier that no-stop / no-stop would "level the playing field". I think that is does allow a lot more folks to play, but maybe not because it requires less skills, but instead different skills that don't take you so far into the realm of danger. Sort of the difference in playing Poker versus Russian Roulette.

[the addict]

I think most who want non stop are mainly riding the easy or clubman route where hopping and stopping are pretty much not needed anyway. Most hard route sections especially down here have to be tight and allow for stopping/hopping else there wouldnt be much to make the sections hard enough on alot of ground, and the current rules get easily broke at any trial around here. Let the easy and clubman route go non stop and let the hard route hop/stop and bounce, surely thats the answer to please most, I enjoy hopping and stopping to line up,not brilliant at it but I like riding sections like that. Strict non stop on the hard route down here equals mega big sections with big run ups and Geoff Capes moments, I would much prefer going up a 4 foot step with a 4 foot run up than an 6 footer with 20 feet run up.

Edited May 30, 2008 by The Addict

[atomant]

Why is this discussion being dominated by Stop & Hop? The only reason this is done is to prepare to go up some HUGE obstacle or extended climb which ironically, has to be done non stop.

These elements in the section draw the largest crowds to view simply because its not just displaying skill, but sheer balls where even the best of the best nonstop riders could ever wish to emulate.

Its this combination of bravery + skill that sets modern trials apart from 'old school' riding.

In our local clubs, the highest level of riders, who can't hop, are a formidable bunch. In general, our stop & hop riders, considered to be "more skilled", can't compete against the non-hop guys, on their own turf...

Is not the SSDT the pinnacle of non stop riding here in the UK? Looking at the top 30 riders, how many of them are 'old school' ?

Here's the results - I cant count many! SSDT Results

[zippy]

Geez, easy solution:

Stopping and balancing is allowed, It is a skill and shows control of motorcycle

Stopping with foot down is a failure, you are now a kickstand.

OK run all trials with this set of rules.

Sections can be set up so that both styles of riding can be accommodated for all but the top class.

Example for class just below top class. super tight turn.....set it up so that it can be made feet up by "riding the ribbon" but if the exact line is not chosen it can still be made by hopping.

This makes it so that the hoppers can hop and the no stoppers can ride through.

Top class Do your worst to them they are the best if they don't like they can drop a class.

I like to think that my riding style is a mix of "classic no stop" and the "stop and hop" but most I ride with call it CRAP!

If you want to ride a twinshock then ride twinshock only trials. Or ride a modern event in the class that you can safely ride and have fun in.

Here in Michigan we don't have too many choices, all modern but we have some that ride the middle classes on twinshocks and even a gentleman that rides either his OLD BSA or CUB in our novice class, and does quite well.

Edited May 30, 2008 by ZIPPY

[motovintage]

I stoped riding trials in the '90's because you really needed to be able to hop to be competitive, when the no stop rules came out I started riding again, I think the no stop was too hard to judge and hurt the sport more than it helped, I like it the way it is now since you can dab and be stoped without 5ing, as far as skills go, I dont think it is more or less skilled to stop or no stop but a different skill, if you were to compare an artist who only used paint and canvas to an artist who only used a computer which would you say is the more skilled, both are skilled in their prefered medium

[dgshannon]

Its this combination of bravery + skill that sets modern trials apart from 'old school' riding.

So, bravery + skill = modern. Which part is missing from "old school"? The bravery?

Regardless of modern, or old school, bravery is always required, depending upon your skill level. For a novice rider, to drop off that 2 foot ledge, the first time, takes great bravery. From the day you started riding, your ability to try more stuff, and advance your skills, required great bravery. The question is how far you push it. My only contention is that stop & hop rules have resulted in pushing it into the ridiculous. You said it yourself...

The only reason this is done is to prepare to go up some HUGE obstacle or extended climb

Why has the sport turned into hop, hop, hop then zip up some "HUGE obstacle", followed by more hop, hop, hop then down some "HUGE obstacle"?

It is a great sport to watch, as are the X-Games, and back-flips, etc. which are also an extreme, on the sport. Where I am coming from, I guess, is extreme vs. mainstream.

What is done at the indoor & outdoor WTC is the extreme, and does not look ANYTHING like what the majority of local clubs do on any given weekend. So, why even bother to try an play by the same rules?

Is not the SSDT the pinnacle of non stop riding here in the UK? Looking at the top 30 riders, how many of them are 'old school' ?

Here's the results - I cant count many! SSDT Results

Thanks for the help, because you are making my point for me. Look at the "top 30 riders" and tell me how many would be in the top 30 at a WTC outdoor? Would they be less competitive because they don't have good stop & hop skills, or because the sections would be more ridiculous? The SSDT proves that it does not take "HUGE obstacles" to take points from riders, and does level the playing field more. In shear numbers, look at how many more people showed up to participate in the SSDT, than at a WTC round.

Again, it is not to much modern vs. old school as it is extreme vs. mainstream. I think the guys that want to hold onto the old rules simply want the sport to grow in the mainstream, instead of continuing to evolve into the X-Games.

[axulsuv]

I think DG... Hit the nail on the head ! Those of us that compete or ride different styles of bikes all know one thing deep down inside! The VERY basic trials techniques we use whenever we get on our bikes are some of the best crosstraining skills for our sport as a whole.

I mean like making a full lock turn then up over a 2foot log ,only to make another 90 degree turn before your back wheel is completly on the ground , all without stopping , hopping and all inside a invisable 15ft.square box with stream crossing at the entrance and a 30ft. 45degree climb to the end gate , is not easy to do without touching the ground ! But we all take the time and practice the balance and control needed to do such things. And when you get even halfway good at it you find that any other type of bike riding is much easier... I have alot of freinds that ride motorcycles and when I tell them I ride trials , they all look at me like I'm crazy ! They all think that the XTREME sport that the top 10 or 15% do is what trials is all about ... And we know thats just not true. I try to explain that all I really need to practice to stay 1/2way in form can be done in my flat backyard, you know the basics , turning , weighting , balance ,etc... And trying to explain that all motorcycle competition evolved out of TRIALS way back when just confuses them even more !

But my point is I think The top guys are amazing !, but if that is all that most folks think of , trials will continue to grow at the snails pace it always has. The public has to know that the finesse and control we develop actually makes our sport one of the safest , family friendly sports there is . End of my rant ...

Glenn

[atomant]

In shear numbers, look at how many more people showed up to participate in the SSDT, than at a WTC round.

Thanks for making my point for me. There are many people that ride the SSDT because whilst there is no doubt a hight level of skill required to win, the basic level of skill to ride it is much lower than what is required at a WTC. Hence the low level of entrants for the WTC who are capable of riding it.

Again, it is not to much modern vs. old school as it is extreme vs. mainstream. I think the guys that want to hold onto the old rules simply want the sport to grow in the mainstream, instead of continuing to evolve into the X-Games.

Its a fair point but the future is with the kids, and that is the way they want to ride. So its inevitable, Non stop will disappear eventually.

[gizza5]

So its inevitable, Non stop will disappear eventually.

I don't think it will and I know we keep going back to the SSDT, but back in the 90's when the trial was too hard because of all the hopping and skipping! one year only receiving 160+ entries. People couldn't do it then and nearly 20 years on there are more people that can't hop and skip thn can!!

Willie Dalling then made the brave decision to revert the event back to 'No Stop' the rest is really history, you try and get in now. Ok you may have lost the the big factory names, but the event was opened up to a whole load more people that are capable and CAN ride No Stop. These people and in AtomAnt's own thinking may have less skill, but it is putting bums on bikes and filling the entry up for the club when they put on such an event.

If the BTC and the WTC can sustain itself with the present format all well and good and I too like to watch and admire the riders capable of tackling these sections, but if it can't then the rules will be changed in one direction only and I feel it will be closer to No Stop??

No Stop will be here for a lot longer than the FIM rules that have been changed several times already, I am all for progress, hopefully not detrimental to our sport!!!

Going back to 'axulsuv' post back in the 70's/80's when people asked you what you did ''Trials oh yes seen that just like KICKSTART on the TV'' no, but very similar