Stop Or No Stop?

[atomant]

I don't think it will and I know we keep going back to the SSDT, but back in the 90's when the trial was too hard because of all the hopping and skipping! one year only receiving 160+ entries. People couldn't do it then and nearly 20 years on there are more people that can't hop and skip than can!!

Just watch kids riding and all of them are practising stopping & hopping. When they grow up, they will be the majority. I stand by what I say - non stop will eventually disappear.

Actually, I would go as far to say that it already has disappeared. As I remember, the rules are simple - stop or go backwards and that's a 5. In the last three years, I have yet to see a so called 'non-stop' event marked 100% like that. You're kidding yourself if you think non stop these days is what it was 20 years ago IMO. It's basically in transition from the old to the new.

[gizza5]

I have yet to see a so called 'non-stop' event marked 100% like that.

.....thats down to the individual observer not the event and that applies to whichever rules you are riding under, but thats a whole new debate, which rules are easier to observe???

[atomant]

Anyway......... modern trials require more skill so there

[timp]

Just watch kids riding and all of them are practising stopping & hopping. When they grow up, they will be the majority. I stand by what I say - non stop will eventually disappear.

Actually, I would go as far to say that it already has disappeared. As I remember, the rules are simple - stop or go backwards and that's a 5. In the last three years, I have yet to see a so called 'non-stop' event marked 100% like that. You're kidding yourself if you think non stop these days is what it was 20 years ago IMO.

It wasn't observed exactly to the rule 20 yrs ago. Theres always been a bit of inconsistancy with observing and always will be.

In my area virtually all trials are observed to no stop or stop for a 1 properly observed. Seems to be a thing down south to ignore the rules that the ACU clubs are supposed to use.

One club in our area always has a very good turnout of youths and they run full no stop.

To say which is more skillfull, no stop or hopping, is impossible. Both are skillfull in their own right.

For kids it is difficult to learn to ride no stop in their back garden but trick riding can be done there so I think trick riding will be prefered by a lot of young riders.

I think both types of trial should continue side by side. Just go to the trials that suit you.

Seems that thats already happening with the British championship. Riders don't like the way it is now so entries are slipping to unsustainable levels. Not sure what it is that isn't working, too many hard sections, time limit in the sections too tight or could it be the observing rules

For me I think stop for a 1 observed correctly is the best compromise to suit both camps.

[frenchie]

Across the channel and certainly in my neck of the woods , in classic trials if you hop the front round you are penalised one mark per hop up to the max three, however even this remains a " grey area " and these marks are dependant on the obsever. I recently rode a trial with a top modern class riding I imagaine to modern observing rules, I could nt for the life of me understand it. I watched in amazement what was expected of the riders but was equally amazed at the amount of time during the section it looked like a five, but the riders seemed oblivious to this and carried on, god knows what they were given I really could n t understand the whole point of it. Being an observer in a modern trial must be a nightmare , I dont really want to get involved with whats best and so on, but a least its a whole lot easier going the non stop rule and dare I say less boring to watch.....

[bilc0]

non stop will eventually disappear.

Let's go to a run of the mill club Trial and say to 70 of the rider's there,The Trial will be all stop and hop today,how many rider's do you think will still be left standing there wanting to ride,i'd say 15 maybe 20 at a push.

I don't think there's a huge number of youngster's coming into trial's able to ride hop,and the one's that can will they carry on when they reach 16.

When you say non stop will eventually disappear thats a worry to me because thats when Trial's Die's unless your one of the few talented that can hop about,then again you won't have club trials because the numbers arn't there to pay the way for them to run,without club Trials,Trials will Die.

Edited June 1, 2008 by bilc0

[atomant]

Let's go to a run of the mill club Trial and say to 70 of the rider's there,The Trial will be all stop and hop today,how many rider's do you think will still be left standing there wanting to ride,i'd say 15 maybe 20 at a push.

I don't think there's a huge number of youngster's coming into trial's able to ride hop,and the one's that can will they carry on when they reach 16.

When you say non stop will eventually disappear thats a worry to me because thats when Trial's Die's unless your one of the few talented that can hop about,then again you won't have club trials because the numbers arn't there to pay the way for them to run,without club Trials,Trials will Die.

Just to clarify, when I mean Non Stop, then I mean if you stop, feet up or otherwise, or you go backwards, then its a 5. This has been watered down with lenient observing over the years to what we have now (albeit I accept some parts of the country will have variations). If I were observing a tough flowing section and a rider was fighting like mad dabbing through to get out the section and he stopped. I wouldn't mark a 5, it would be a 3. I think the 5 would be too harsh for the obvious effort being put in. And this is typical of the observing I have witnessed over the last three years.

The thing is with Non Stop ( done properly) it takes an educated rider to see the merits of someone who is good and rides with finesse. These are typically older riders. A youth looking at that for the first time would think it was nothing special, but watch someone do a flick turn, an endo or a 6ft splat and straight away it looks 'cool' and they want to do it too.

The youth have to start somewhere of course so if the wish to emulate the Bou's of this world, they will need to practice balancing with feet up when stationary. If they are riding a trial that penalises them for doing this by giving them a 5, then how will they develop? This is why I say it will eventually disappear.

All in my humble opinion of course

unless your one of the few talented that can hop about

I am certainly not one of the talented few..... although maybe with a bit of practice

[bilc0]

The youth have to start somewhere of course so if the wish to emulate the Bou's of this world, they will need to practice balancing with feet up when stationary. If they are riding a trial that penalises them for doing this by giving them a 5, then how will they develop? This is why I say it will eventually disappear.

Oh i see what your saying now,In that case you can safely say non stop is already Dead.

The only real option left for riders that want to ride non stop trials now is get yourself a Twinshock and travel the country to some of the excellent non stop twinshock classic trials going on...You know it makes sence.

[axulsuv]

Oh i see what your saying now,In that case you can safely say non stop is already Dead.

The only real option left for riders that want to ride non stop trials now is get yourself a Twinshock and travel the country to some of the excellent non stop twinshock classic trials going on...You know it makes sence.

YUP !!!! No matter what country your in ...!

[swooshdave]

If I were observing a tough flowing section and a rider was fighting like mad dabbing through to get out the section and he stopped. I wouldn't mark a 5, it would be a 3. I think the 5 would be too harsh for the obvious effort being put in. And this is typical of the observing I have witnessed over the last three years.

The point of no-stop is forward motion. If you start paddling to get out of a section and still can't make it, that's a 5. Of course it's easier to paddle when you have a bike with a... seat.

The thing is with Non Stop ( done properly) it takes an educated rider to see the merits of someone who is good and rides with finesse. These are typically older riders. A youth looking at that for the first time would think it was nothing special, but watch someone do a flick turn, an endo or a 6ft splat and straight away it looks 'cool' and they want to do it too.

Pick your favorite section you've ever seen someone do. Now imagine them have to do it while maintaining forward motion. It just went from incredible to super-human.

[jimmyl]

Simple answer is for sections to be marked out flowing and with no impossibly tight turns or no run up steps.

The riders can then do what they like. If its tricky and slippy then a smooth flowing style will always work well and the kids can do 500 hops, skips and jumps and still clean the section as well as an over 40's traditional rider will no stop..

Mark it out tight and only the hopping and bopping lines are possible eliminating the traditional riders.

This years St Davids could have been ridden no stop if needed, especially on the expert route but all the top boys (and girl) like to split the sections down into a multitude of stop go hazards and as such the current 90 second rule is actually easier to observe than a 1 for a stop rule as its not necessary to judge whether the bike has stopped forward motion.

PS

As every trial ever run in th world this years Scottish had variation in observing the " no stop rule". I know some sections I struggled on and got a 3 and some I got a 5. Just human nature.

[bigfoot]

Oh i see what your saying now,In that case you can safely say non stop is already Dead.

The only real option left for riders that want to ride non stop trials now is get yourself a Twinshock and travel the country to some of the excellent non stop twinshock classic trials going on...You know it makes sence.

Or move to Scotland. The SACU (who govern our sport in Scotland) have pretty much stuck with no-stop. I can't remember the last trial I rode where a stop was permitted. This suits my riding style (if you can call it a style) but better riders still do better. The issue of observing is not an easy one but as long as an observer treats everyone the same it should work.

Going back to this years SSDT where Dougie dropped 2 at Gorton. I was one of very few at the section and the observer was being very un-scottish in giving out 5's for even a momentary stop of almost imeasurable time. The riders were warning each other so everyone knew that they couldn't stop even for a fraction of a second. I think it was this on Dougie's mind that made him take at least his second dab. I've got the video and will share it soon but his first dab was maybe explainable by his chosen line but the second was 100% down to worrying about stopping. The obverser took some stick during the day (not from Doug) but I'd have to say he was far to tough but fair all the same. Quite a few more than two 'cleaned' it if the marking had been as per every other section of the week but too many stopped for a fraction of a second. A tough section and one worth the walk in to if your planning a visit in future. Andy even made it. Though I think he'll carry an oxy bottle next time.

So anyway, my vote is for no stop at all levels just harder no stop for the WTC. I've got video from the SSDT that shows how to hop and jump in a section but with the added skill of not stopping while doing it. The skills are just the same and the best will always win.

[neonsurge]

.....thats down to the individual observer not the event and that applies to whichever rules you are riding under, but thats a whole new debate, which rules are easier to observe???

Yes! The full name of the sport is "Observed Trials", not just "Trials". There's an equal importance on both the observation and the riding. One cannot exist without the other and this discussion is practically ignoring 50% of the issue.

Both TSR22a and 22b rules can be difficult to observe, especially at expert level and above since there's no clear definition of what constitutes a stop. Has a stop occured when the bike is stationary for more than a couple of seconds? One second? A tenth of a second? How can you tell? If the rider is facing directly away from the observer's position it's very difficult to tell whether the bike's moving forward or not. I suspect that's how the current FIM rules came about: Don't worry about stopping, just watch for roll-backs. Easy (comparitively speaking).

Since I pretty much quit riding, I've started to take observing semi-seriously and have been thinking about this and the role of the observer in general for a while. Personally, I think it's time that observing got more organised and I've got some ideas how that might be achieved.

[andat]

So anyway, my vote is for no stop at all levels just harder no stop for the WTC. I've got video from the SSDT that shows how to hop and jump in a section but with the added skill of not stopping while doing it. The skills are just the same and the best will always win.

If you mean by no-stop (stop feet up = 1 mark lost etc) then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[bullropebill]

Atom, I have to ask, how many trials have you ridden this year, and are your replies based on what you want and think are the best for the sport, or what you here Ross talking about?.

The topic started out by asking the question, which was more challenging to the rider, stop or no stop.

Then it wondered off down the road of which type of rules the person replying preferred, I see plenty of reference to world and British champs, what the youth

are doing and should be doing, but those post are made by old blokes who couldn't do what the young riders do if they wanted.

The truth is, world and championship classes are dwindling to the point it's not worth the effort to put them on.

If only a few can truly master the technique to be competitive at top level, is it not defeating the whole object of trying to grow the sport.

At this time three classes can't muster up the entries of the one class one line championships of the seventies and eighties.

"No stop will die" looking at entries for no stop events compared to stop and hop events, no stop events look to be more popular.

Answering the question with what rules you prefer isn't going to solve low entries at top level, finding a workable solution so more riders can compete without risking life and limb may.

By making rules favor the top few, that is what you will be left with.

This post was posted by Bullrope bill, the artist formaly known as Ishy, who's tenner in the meter expired.