Are Cooling Agents Safe In Beta Cooling Systems?

[neta160]

Does anyone know for sure if adding "Water Wetter" or "Ice" to the anti-freeze in Betas will NOT harm the cases? These products help reduce the operating temperature a bit and work fine in other bikes, but I am a caustious to use these products knowing that a friends 07 Rev7 case was eaten away for some reason.

[jmck]

Yes, Red Lines 'WaterWetter' and 'SuperCool with WaterWetter' are safe to use and are actually recomended; not using these products will cause corrosion problems. We have used them both in the shop for many years now and have had "zero" corrosion problems and have never had to replace a water pump due to a bad seal.

Use them and sleep well.

[jse]

Yes, Red Lines 'WaterWetter' and 'SuperCool with WaterWetter' are safe to use and are actually recomended; not using these products will cause corrosion problems. We have used them both in the shop for many years now and have had "zero" corrosion problems and have never had to replace a water pump due to a bad seal.

Use them and sleep well.

Same with me. I havent used the SuperCool, but I've used Redline's WaterWetter (a surfactant that improves heat transfer between cylinder surface and coolant) for many years, including all the Pro level bikes and have never had any issues with corrosion. We did some unscientific testing under control conditions years ago on several competition bikes and found a temp drop in the 8-10 degree range, which is significant.

Jon

Edited August 8, 2008 by JSE

[jmck]

When i heard about this stuff a little while back i thought it sounded ideal... but then i started to hear about a build up of a sludge coating, not good for radiators etc.

info Here

I use Silkolene Pro Cool as it has a corrosion inhibitor and so far haven't had any corrosion in either my 05 beta or the 08 i have now.

Believe what you want,but that article is a bunch of crap in my opinion. Like I said, I have personal experience with WaterWetter for MANY years in 2 and 4-stroke road racers, trials bikes, motocrossers, enduro bikes, street bikes, and cars with ABSOLUTELY no build of anything and ZERO corrosion. There aren't many products that I promote just for the heck of it, but WaterWetter is one of them.

[jse]

When i heard about this stuff a little while back i thought it sounded ideal... but then i started to hear about a build up of a sludge coating, not good for radiators etc.

info Here

I use Silkolene Pro Cool as it has a corrosion inhibitor and so far haven't had any corrosion in either my 05 beta or the 08 i have now.

Although I haven't used it personally, I've heard of good results from the Pro Cool. I've had good luck with all the Silkolene products.

I found the article interesting, but not particularily compelling, in that he described WaterWetter as containing "Tolytriazole PolySiloxane Polymer", but then goes on to describe "polydimethylsiloxane" and how nasty it is to clean out of tubes. I thought the Latin quotation, "Numquam ponenda est pluritas sine necessitate"", at the end of the post was cool, though.

It may be a possibility that under certain circumstances and in the presence of other chemicals, the WaterWetter additive could create a problem, but I've never heard of it happening and my long-term personal experience, so far, has been positive, or in Latin terms, I arrived at my conclusion "a posteriori" ("From what comes after", inductive reasoning based on observation).

Jon, absit invidia (no offence intended)

[02-apr]

Same with me. I havent used the SuperCool, but I've used Redline's WaterWetter (a surfacant that improves heat transfer between cylinder surface and coolant) for many years, including all the Pro level bikes and have never had any issues with corrosion. We did some unscientific testing under control conditions years ago on several competition bikes and found a temp drop in the 8-10 degree range, which is significant.

Jon

I don't follow the logic of this. I suppose it depends where you take the reading but if the coolant is 8 degrees cooler or if the outer surface of the barrel is 8 degrees cooler (and the bulk of its temperature must come from the coolant) then it follows that the coolant is taking less heat out of the motor, not more?

[jse]

I don't follow the logic of this. I suppose it depends where you take the reading but if the coolant is 8 degrees cooler or if the outer surface of the barrel is 8 degrees cooler (and the bulk of its temperature must come from the coolant) then it follows that the coolant is taking less heat out of the motor, not more?

Well,

the coolant is taking more heat out of the cylinder, but the coolant is also transfering more heat to the radiator (and to ambient air) and therefore the system is more effecient in operation, hense the lower operating temperatures. I think, maybe, that you are assuming the coolant is the "end of the road" for the heat, but it really is just a link in the chain that ends in release to the outside air. The WaterWetter allows the engine to "move" heat better from one material to another (cylinder alloy surface to coolant medium to radiator material) by reducing the normally high surface tension of water. In roadrace bikes, we are not allowed to use normal anti-freeze, as a spill makes the track like ice, so we usually use distilled water and an additive like WaterWetter, which also contains approved additives to inhibit corrosion in the alloy engines.

In a way, it's kinda the same as one of the reasons we went from iron cylinder liners to present day plated ceramic cylinders. The "gap" where the aluminum met the iron inhibited heat transfer, much the same as the microscopic, insulating air bubbles that form, under heat, at the cylinder/coolant junction.

Anyway, that's basically how I understand it

Jon, never lying but sometimes inaccurate....

[02-apr]

Well,

the coolant is taking more heat out of the cylinder, but the coolant is also transfering more heat to the radiator (and to ambient air) and therefore the system is more effecient in operation, hense the lower operating temperatures. I think, maybe, that you are assuming the coolant is the "end of the road" for the heat, but it really is just a link in the chain that ends in release to the outside air. The WaterWetter allows the engine to "move" heat better from one material to another (cylinder alloy surface to coolant medium to radiator material) by reducing the normally high surface tension of water. In roadrace bikes, we are not allowed to use normal anti-freeze, as a spill makes the track like ice, so we usually use distilled water and an additive like WaterWetter, which also contains approved additives to inhibit corrosion in the alloy engines.

In a way, it's kinda the same as one of the reasons we went from iron cylinder liners to present day plated ceramic cylinders. The "gap" where the aluminum met the iron inhibited heat transfer, much the same as the microscopic, insulating air bubbles that form, under heat, at the cylinder/coolant junction.

Anyway, that's basically how I understand it

Jon, never lying but sometimes inaccurate....

Thanks I can follow that but.... 10 degrees is a significant percentage - can the typical small trials radiator really lose that much more heat. I'm not being critical, just trying to understand the physics (as a Beta rider I have an interest in corrosion protection). Do we have an expert in the house who can explain the physics?

[jse]

Thanks I can follow that but.... 10 degrees is a significant percentage - can the typical small trials radiator really lose that much more heat. I'm not being critical, just trying to understand the physics (as a Beta rider I have an interest in corrosion protection). Do we have an expert in the house who can explain the physics?

My understanding is limited, but hopefully there is someone out there with a background in Thermal Physics who can relate exactly how the surfactant promotes the second law of thermodynamics.

Jon

[jmck]

Thanks I can follow that but.... 10 degrees is a significant percentage - can the typical small trials radiator really lose that much more heat. I'm not being critical, just trying to understand the physics (as a Beta rider I have an interest in corrosion protection). Do we have an expert in the house who can explain the physics?

Go to RedLine's web site and let them explain how it works: http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp

There is a WaterWetter demo you can watch, and lots of product documentation.

[dan williams]

Interesting that they don't mention magnesium.

[jmck]

Interesting that they don't mention magnesium.

This is from their web site: "Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals"

[jse]

This is from their web site: "Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals"

Although my engine is magnesium (cases and sidecover) all the components that are coolant related are aluminum (water pump, cylinder, head, radiator), and as mentioned, I've never had any corrosion indicators present in 6+ years of use in my personal bike. And this includes all the other alloy engines I've built over many other years, which is not overall conclusive, of course, but is conclusive according to personal experience.

Jon

[dan williams]

This is also from their website,

"Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze systems."

Caveat emptor

Engine ice specifically mentions magnesium

[copemech]

Magnesium is highly succeptable to corrosion- end of story! Good corrosion inhibitors in coolant are important in any coolant, as that is what wears out, not the anti-freeze or cooling ability. If a cooling system is well balanced, additional cooling is not needed and can actually be considered as detrimental in some cases ov overefficiency leading to low CHT's and such. Seems all motors have a most efficient thermodynamic range. Try riding your bike off Cold! They pretty much suck! An extreme example of a simple principle!

Some of my recent experience indicates that certain metals may prematurely induce a significant PH swing in the coolant which will prematurely start an electrosis process that will quickly damage soft alloys such as ali and mag. This phenom is not totally explained, yet does exhist. The mag is the sacrificial alloy in this scinerio.

My personal theory is to pay special attention to any mag components by changing out coolant at least every 90 days. Do not totally trust the corrosion inhibitors in common fluids.

I heard Beta went back to ali castings?

Big Al Bechard has a lot of experience with PM and coolants. Wonder if he might be able to expound on this topic? Electrolosis is a wierd animal, the thermodynamics is a simple BTU in vs BTU out! Not to be confused.