copemech Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) In continuing thoughts of softening the controls on the bikes, I had just a bit of extra time to experiment this last weekend. Much of this comes from Dan's posts on improving the Beta clutches. On the Sherco clutch, my theory is this. In the old days of the '01,'03, and '05 bikes that I had, the clutches seemed near perfect. Starting with the '06 bike, some seemed to complain that the clutch seemed a bit too grabby. Mind you, they went to the medium length lever rather than the shortie during this period, in which there is a signifigant difference in the pull length to the sweet spot. More feddling brought me back to the heavier oils on the "07 to reduce grabbiness, yet what is left of my finger memory and such just simply inclines me to believe that they changed the clutch springs in progression, to be slightly heavier and quicker for the top riders. It is obviously quicker due to the lever, yet I think more is there than meets the eye. I had experimented with removal ov two springs on the wifey bike(125) long ago, yet it was just too light, yes you could ride it but it was soo light it left little tactile feedback. Just not right in my book. Trying this same brief experiment on the '07 was totally different. Even after reducing the total spring pressure by 33% there was still decent feel, yet things were off, had to adjust the release point back in a bit, and it was glass smooth in operation. I attribute this to the relief of stress on the seals and such, which actually nets what seems to be a gain of 40-50% in operational smoothness! Now the backyard testing, well it is smooth, could work well for most between 1 and 3 gears, still seems to have a good grip(pop) point at end of travel. I could adjust to this, speceally reduces finger fatigue. The 4th and 5th gear tests revealed signifigant slippage when popped! Mind you I am still on the thick oil, not the ATF! That experiment will wait, as my oil is fresh. However I do know from experience, a total revv and pop in the upper gears may give you some slippage in the stock setup. Just seems to take a moment to squeze the oil out from between the plates. None of the Experts would want any part of this I think, Just us old farts and such! Even in this light configuration I could not slip the clutch enough in a normal trial to damage it, no less what the pro's put them through in their useage. ps- We had a ride this past weekend after our summer break. A dislocated rib left me nothing but honey doos, so I had to stay home and play in the back yard! Yes, it still hurts! Edited September 4, 2008 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustandoil Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) Interesting post, I await your conclusion........ I am going to try a different oil in my 2007 clutch, as soon as I can find some locally, I don't know what oil the clutch would be filled with at the factory, but the way you describe a clutch filled with ATF as "grabby" is interesting as this is exactly how I would describe the feel ( or lack of it!) of my clutch. Edited to add:- I have given up trying to find some oil locally, I have been furiously searching the 'net and the name "Opie oils" kept cropping up, spoke to them (very helpful) and have ordered some Silkoline PRO SRG 75 Fully synthetic racing gear oil, I am hoping it will arrive by the weekend, I will post here and let you know how I get on....... Edited September 3, 2008 by rustandoil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Interesting post, I await your conclusion........ I am going to try a different oil in my 2007 clutch, as soon as I can find some locally, I don't know what oil the clutch would be filled with at the factory, but the way you describe a clutch filled with ATF as "grabby" is interesting as this is exactly how I would describe the feel ( or lack of it!) of my clutch. Edited to add:- I have given up trying to find some oil locally, I have been furiously searching the 'net and the name "Opie oils" kept cropping up, spoke to them (very helpful) and have ordered some Silkoline PRO SRG 75 Fully synthetic racing gear oil, I am hoping it will arrive by the weekend, I will post here and let you know how I get on....... Yes, that 75 wt will be much closer to factory spec I would think. That is what I have run in the last two years in the Maxima brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustandoil Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 "Closer to the factory spec" that's the interesting bit, I don't know what oil is in there at the moment, but as the bike is so unused I would believe it to be "factory spec oil" it will be interesting to see that a change to similar spec oil but synthetic will actually make a difference, I anxiously await Fridays postal delivery..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 BVM can't be too far away from you? (Stroud) Have you tried them for your oils? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustandoil Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 BVM are about 45 mins away, and yes perhaps I should have tried them, however the chap at Opie oils was very helpful and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 (edited) on my 07 i tried the maxima 75 wt then went to the amsoil synth 10w40. didn't really feel a difference in the clutch. i do feel the clutch is spot on at this point, smooth and progressive. i have inspected it and it shows no wear at all. i also feel that the "stuck clutch when starting" syndrome has reduced since going to synth (maybe my imagination). on my yamaha 1600 cc roadstar i had changed to amsoil and the engine noise dropped significantly (air cooled big twins give you a lot of feedback), little more difficult to detect anything noise reduction with a 2t. cheers Edited September 4, 2008 by borus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 It is sort of intristing, this light clutch configuration, - 2 springs! Actually rode twice last weekend on it. I may just leave it for a while to see what happens, as I do love the lightness and do not expect to be jumping any tall buildings soon! Although I must say this may well work even better with the Merc or Allison pure synth ATF, you see ATF is about 10 W on the scale to the 10-40. I think Amzoil make a Allison spec fluid as well! You see this suuff is really tough rated, even as a "fill for life" fluid in some very hard working applications! Pretty amazing really when you consider it! Not that I neccessarily recommend running ANY of the long life fluids that long! When in doubt, get it out! This applies to coolant as well, in all your vehicles. You can push the limits if you must! Not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Hey,Copemech, Funny you should mention the ATF lifespan...my father-in-law bought a big diesel (torquey!) MPV and when I looked at the service recommendations it quoted 100,000 mile intervals for the transmission! So that made me think (just like you) that if ATF can withstand the shear forces in a 2 tonne (loaded) diesel,for 100,000 miles,then a little trials bike gearbox isn't going to be a problem....but I don't wanna be the first to test that out!!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jse Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Not that I neccessarily recommend running ANY of the long life fluids that long! When in doubt, get it out! This applies to coolant as well, in all your vehicles. You can push the limits if you must! Not me. Me too. The fluid property breakdown is not the problem as much as contaminants such as water and fine grit. With no filters, no external cooling and an open breather, the transmission case in a Trials bike is prone to ingesting and retaining a fair amount of gunk, especially in the case of a wet Trial. One of the reasons why, if you want to avoid future problems, you NEVER want to store a Trials bike after a wet Trial without first changing the trans fluid. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Me too. The fluid property breakdown is not the problem as much as contaminants such as water and fine grit. With no filters, no external cooling and an open breather, the transmission case in a Trials bike is prone to ingesting and retaining a fair amount of gunk, especially in the case of a wet Trial. One of the reasons why, if you want to avoid future problems, you NEVER want to store a Trials bike after a wet Trial without first changing the trans fluid.Jon I don't remember a dry trial. I think we had one in May, although that could have been a new set of waterproofs which just gave me the impression of a dry trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlracer Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Copie you may light enough to get away with 4 clutch springs but I wouldn't recommend to anyone that weighs very much cause it will slip. I worked on a friends Sherco cause the clutch was slipping, when I got inside to look at it he had taken 2 springs out cause someone told him it would be easier to pull. I laughed and said here's your bill for a new clutch cause he waisted his. He weighted around 200lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 Copie you may light enough to get away with 4 clutch springs but I wouldn't recommend to anyone that weighs very much cause it will slip. I worked on a friends Sherco cause the clutch was slipping, when I got inside to look at it he had taken 2 springs out cause someone told him it would be easier to pull. I laughed and said here's your bill for a new clutch cause he waisted his. He weighted around 200lbs. What year bike and how crazy of a rider? Don't think it would work for Shak for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlracer Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 I think it was an 06, rider doesn't use the clutch for a lot of slip an go, well he did after he took 2 springs out. I road the bike and was impressed with what he was doing, I couldn't ride it. Yes you got the name right. Copie see ya in Texas, bring your insurance card and have a go on the 4-stroke, i'll put the slow throttle on it if you want. This one run about like the last sherco you got from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 I think it was an 06, rider doesn't use the clutch for a lot of slip an go, well he did after he took 2 springs out. I road the bike and was impressed with what he was doing, I couldn't ride it. Yes you got the name right. Copie see ya in Texas, bring your insurance card and have a go on the 4-stroke, i'll put the slow throttle on it if you want. This one run about like the last sherco you got from me. I don't want to get that Beater near a rock! I would have to buy it if I scratched it! No, just cannot figure that is the correct setup for Shak on the clutch, but you know, the only other exercise he gets on the weeks off is wrapping that finger around his wenie! At least I have an excuse, old age and my friend Author Itis! I spent another hour playing with it today in the back of the house, it just baffles me, I actually did some neat stuff that I have never been able to do before, it is sooo light, you just have to let it fly!!! Pop Pop Pop!! You know that Raga stuff, where he goes from the ground to the curb to the rock , then another , then another-- all on the back wheel??? I actually did that today, well , I stuffed the rock, but so what! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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