Wassell / Dalesman Trials Bikes

[yam 22]

Are these two types of bike increadably rare? I've read the Wassell was made in Birmingham and the Dalesman in Otley but the Wassell & later model of Dalesman both had a Sach 124cc engine plus a 6 speed box and both look pretty similar if not identical from photos I've seen on the internet. Were they basically the same bike ?

Over the past couple of years I been dreaming of one day coming across one for sale so if anyone could point me in the direction of one, it'd be much appreciated.

thanks

[michaelmoore]

The new VMX that arrived yesterday has an article on the Wassell, and says that Wassell took over the Dalesman (frame by Jim Lee). Some were also sold as Penton Mudlarks and Tyrans.

cheers,

Michael

[bultaco49]

If you punch dalesman/wassell into the search facility above there are a few threads and photos of these bikes posted in the past.

Tim

[big john]

Yes, Dalesman were built in Otley, Yorkshire, in fact at one time in an old church, that was the factory. Main man was Pete Edmondston, that's the father of top world enduro rider Paul Edmonston!

Finance at one stage came from the USA and Joel Robert tested some of the original moto-cross Dalesman bikes. Originally the motors were tuned Puch M125 and then Sachs 6 speed 125cc motors were used.

There were three Dalesman/Puch machines entered in the 1969 ISDT at Garmisch Partenkirchen, Bavaria (I know this because I owned the Ernie Page [Edinburgh, Scotland] bike registered PSG 565H as my first off-road motorcycle) The other two bikes were ridden by Ian Millar (Edinburgh, PSG 546H) and Scott Ellis (of BSA fame) rode the third bike. The ISDT bikes had moto-cross frames with trials motors, centre stands, lights and a 20 inch front wheel. Forks were by REH (copies of Ceriani). Moto-cross style large capacity glass-fibre airboxes were fitted and tuned adapted Puch enduro type exhaust systems were also fitted at high level. Rear hub was Puch and were QD (Quickly Detachable) leaving the rear sprocket in situ with the chain attached to aid rear tyre changes.

The trials bike of that era were Puch powered originally but they used the spindly Puch moped type front hubs and fork units. A pan type air cleaner was used along with the puch rear hub units already described.

Jim Lee who built the frames was also the long term sponsor of TT winner Mick Grant and that is why Mick rides with the initials 'JL' on all his crash helmets! Most people think it is an arrow logo whereas it is a stylised JL!

After re-financing, Bill Brooker joined Dalesman from Greeves as General Manager.

Hope this helps someone!

PS There is a Dalesman for sale at the moment without an engine unit, PM me for details I spotted it in a paper this morning (UK)

Regards,

Big John

Edited October 2, 2008 by Big John

[nat]

The Wassel 125 (Sachs) was my first bike in '78. Bought for

[yam 22]

Thanks for all the responses to date.

Cheers NAT for your story. Mine's not too dissimilar .......

in the late 1970's, at the tender age of just 12, I fell in love with a second hand Wassell - for sale at a local garage. Quite easy really after having ridden my old BSA Bantam field bike for two years! The Wassell looked special (all sleek & silver) & I decided there and then to use all my life savings. I put down the deposit but when I got back from summer holiday two weeks later, found the garage had sold the Wassell to someone else. True ..... the pain has never gone away. Tried to fill the gap by owning / restoring a TL125 but decided I now need to find that elusive Wassell, whatever the condition (showroom, basket case, whatever) to caste out those demons!!! Here's living in hope.

[woody]

A second hand Wassell Sachs was also my first trials bike back in '74, part chopped my Greeves Challenger for it which was my first motorbike (wanted a trials bike in the first place anyway)

Sadly, it didn't perform as well as it looked and was pretty gutless. It soon got part chopped itself for a type 80 Bultaco, just like the one we used to watch Arthur Browning performing on in the local sand quarry where we used to ride. This is it I thought, now I have a real bike. The other thing that really used to irritate with the Sachs was that it was a major achievement, or minor miracle, to get it to change gear from 1st to 2nd in one go. Used to hit neutral virtually every time. A friend had another Sachs engined bike and his did exactly the same.

Good luck in the search but you may find more demons than you're trying to leave behind if you do find one....

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy

[westyfield]

...like several of you guys I started off with a the 125 Sachs engine, firstly in a Sprite (

[michaelmoore]

A couple days ago I was talking to a friend who is building up a Monark 125MX with a 6 speed Sachs engine. I asked him if he'd gotten one of the shifter kits and he told me that the person who was building the engine claims that if you open up a little the slots in the gears for the selector bar that resolves the "box o' neutrals" issue (presuming you've also got the shifter mechanism properly adjusted). That will add a little backlash, but makes it easier for the selector bar to move into the gear instead of bouncing off because it doesn't perfectly hit the opening.

That's hearsay, but the person who is doing the work has a good reputation for being competent.

cheers,

Michael

[greeves]

My good friend Big John: This Wassell-Sachs bike raced in Robregordo 2006; and you missed it??? I can

[big john]

Yes, I missed that bike at Robregordo!

I was too busy looking at all those lovely Bultaco Sherpas to notice it...

Big John

[peterb]

That's understandable Big John, you can't get enough of those Bultaco's - proper bikes. I just got another 199 for a school project.

In the 70's in North Yorks, there were a couple of brothers riding Dalesmen very successfully, can't remember their names but Brian Hutchinson would know them. They were really noisy too.

Woody, I haven't worked on a Sachs motor to understand the gear selector mechanism, but if it is a barrel/drum selector I had a similar problem with a 93 GG that was traced to the selector drum having too much end float, not allowing the selector forks to correctly position the gears (as the drum would move in and out - endfloat) I fixed this by shimming out the endfloat and from there on it was all good.

Bye, PeterB.

[woody]

Hi Peter - I was 14 or 15 at the time and the only thing I knew about shimming was up or down drainpipes to beat punishment curfews

[sparks2]

]Hi

I've read this topic with some interest as I purchased a new six-speed Puch Dalesman in November 1970. I had seen a good result from Ray Sayer riding a works prepared six-speed Dalesman in the Scott trial the previous month and was thus influenced.

It has always been my understanding that the frames were indeed made by Jim Lee at Birstall Smithies, West Yorkshire. On my six-speeder the frame was well thought out and built, probably in mild steel and mig welded. At the time, mig welding was a relatively new process. My forks were lightweight MP S600 with Puch hubs

To my recollection, most Dalemans were produced in the years 1969 to 1972, the Wassels were produced later - 1973 to Circa 1975, the Rival (by Sedge) later still - 1976.

I cannot be certain that Jim Lee produced the Wassel frames but I would say that it was most likely as there are just too many similarities between the Daleman and Wassel.

On my six-speeder the basic frame, as I have said, was good and the engine bulletproof however the same could not be said for the ancilliary parts. Shall I say that the rest gave the impression of being thrown together in a hurry. A brief list of what I mean - Inadequate steering head bearing arrangement (lost balls at every trial until converted to taper rollers). Inadequate front brake torque arm/stop - again worked loose in no time. Crude footrest arragement. Side panels that were held on by self tapping screws driven DIRECTLY into the frame tubing. There were probably others but time has dulled the pain.

I know, I know, these are all faults that would be easily fixed by modern day pre-65 expertise and equiped workshop but these are things that as a 18/19 year old I did not readily have access to.

BJ - I strongly suspect that any ISDT or Dalesmans with works connections were been built to a far higher standard, thus leaving the ordiniary punters to sort out the faults. Mine would not have lasted 1 day as supplied, let alone 6.

Years later, I remember talking to Harry Wright (Terry Wright's father, Terry won the Isle of Man Two Day on a Dalesman) he recalled that it was only because he and/or Terry was a toolmaker that they could keep his Dalesman rolling.

Interesting Fact (probably true) - again years later, talking to Mick Wilkinson, Mick told me that Pete Eddy sub-contracted the manufacture of many cycle parts to the workshops of Armley Prison in Leeds.

Anyway, I soldiered on with my Dalesman for the best part of 3 years, so things can't have been that bad, before trading for a Montesa - what a relief. Something with real power and much more comfortable to ride.

Hope all this is of interest to someone.

Kind Regards

Sparks2