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Week 88 - Lakes And 'rakes


Andy
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As usual John Collins talks a lot of sense and is balanced in his opinions . He also has the interests of the sport at heart. But one thing for sure there is no perfect answer with the gap in skill levels ever widening' Personally I would like to see A class champinship merged with BTC to swell the numbers and help the youngsters forward.

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Tell me why on top of classic (incl 0ver 50 and over40) sammy novogar (incl 125 and over 40) trailbike expert and full btc we need another championship?

Because a lot of very good riders don't like the current British Champs hence why there not riding them anymore!

It would be nice to have a proper British Championship on the road.

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Because a lot of very good riders don't like the current British Champs hence why there not riding them anymore!

It would be nice to have a proper British Championship on the road.

They could call it the "Novogar"?

Who are these "very good riders" name names?

Edited by Nigel Dabster
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I agree with the points JC makes. It is difficult and it is never possible to suit everybody. Dabster keeps referring to the novogar rounds but in my experience from them they are not what the majority wants at all. Only the northern rounds could be considered in any way traditional. Anything south of Stoke on Trent and it becomes a struggle as the land leaves limited options and all of the novogar rounds do require hopping. Partly this could be down to the clerks of courses but the numbers are dwindling ever more. I remember when it was called the clubman championship and the winner was never on more than a handful of marks and that should be the same now. If the likes of for instance Browny or Dibs want to ride they should be going clean or a silly dab at worst. Anyway back to the original debate. Is it not viable for there to be a 3rd route at the BC and have nice straightforward sections with no need to stop and bugger about? To back this up it would not really have any impact on the overall time limit if it attracted another 25 or 30 riders, maybe more as the sections would be ridden with the time limit not really of much relevance. It would bump up the entries no end and maybe it is the suggestion. There are a lot of bloody good centre riders who in the years gone by would have had a crack at a few british champ rounds but now they dont want to as they have to work and dont want to hurt themselves but at the same time dont want to struggle on the expert course dropping 120 marks and maybe more. Just my thoughts!

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Tell me why on top of classic (incl 0ver 50 and over40) sammy novogar (incl 125 and over 40) trailbike expert and full btc we need another championship?

I think the point Timps is making is that we wouldn't necessarily need all these separate events for modern bikes. A National Championship for modern bikes with (this is really novel) classes for Experts, Intermediates & Novices (as determined by the riders home centre). Two routes: Easy (Novices) and Hard (Experts) with a 50/50 for Intermediates. Novices and Inters can ride up a class but can't drop down when they feel like it. Over 40's, 50's & 60's welcome to ride on a no championship basis (they're not interested in trophies at that age, they just want to ride round having the crack).

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They could call it the "Novogar"?

Who are these "very good riders" name names?

I don't think it's really fair naming these riders, but just look who used to ride in the British Champs but don't anymore that will give you a idea, nearly all of them that I've spoke to anyway have said it cause the rules are rubbish. Then there quite a number who currently ride the British Champs but don't enjoy them!

The Novogar isn't quite hard enough for a lot of these riders nor are some of them even eligible to ride in those events.

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as an outsider to the BTC, my only experience is the British at Hook Woods this year (in the rain :thumbup: ). on the other hand i know a lot about not only running trials but also enduro and more specifically motocross. my club (and my family in particular) run one of the bigger round of the British mx championship.

fundamentally in motorsport there are 3 ways of making the event pay, if you can't meet any of these 3, then you really do have to ask some serious questions (and good luck to the clubs that do run rounds currently) about why the hell you are using your members money (ie the average "Joe Clubman") to fund "pro" level sport

1) does the riders entry fee's cover the costs of the event. either you charge the very small field a lot of money (allegedly world mx champs will charge the teams/factories 10K euro per rider) or get a lot of riders in (eg British Enduro Champs sees loads of Joe Clubmen compete alongside the "pro" riders)

2) the paying public cover the costs - so we are back to how do we a) get them to the trial in the first place be they; i) from within trials, ii) within off road motorsport, iii) bikers in general - ie MCN et al and iv) the wider local public. :rolleyes: you've then got to get a venue to handle the numbers - we've all know the problems at BTC and WTC level (Jake Miller wrote extensively about Hawkstone IIRC). so we are either making the sections for trial (Hook Woods and some of Hawkstone) or somehow getting the public to mess us the countryside (Scott, SSDT, et al)

3) get some other bugger to pay for it - either a) some branch of government (local, tourist board, national, europe, etc) or :rolleyes: some sponsor (you trials guys have yet to climb on the "new tobacco" band wagon that is energy drinks like road race and mx have). now in mainland England and Wales i don't see or hear of anyone having much luck on the government road, and if people like Jake Miller haven't got any big ticket industry and non industry people to a WTC @ Hawkstone then je ne sais pas ....

so how you move the BTC forward is a really good perennial question, us guys in MX certainly don't have the answer (ACUE isn't the magic answer, nor is Youthstream, and guys stateside - MXsports/NPG are reinventing the wheel), and to an extent enduro (be it BEC, EEC, or WEC) have very similar problems/issues.

what do we as a sport want the BTC to do ???, produce WTC riders, allow the clubs/promoters to break even, bring the sport to the masses (spectator or competing), the choice is ours, but compromise are inherent with each choice .....

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Hehe - Don't you just think that reading a John Collins post is like sitting down with the Sunday Papers :thumbup:

Anyway, I agree with what he says. I admire the ACU and the clubs that do the work to put these events on. Adding another modified 'Masters' class or adding the A class for the youths as bigwig says are great ways of swelling the entry.

However, the people complaining in this thread don't appear to have any link to the event so why comment if it doesn't affect you?

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However, the people complaining in this thread don't appear to have any link to the event so why comment if it doesn't affect you?

Joe public may have a kick around with a football with a few mates on a Sunday, but he is really passionate about Manchester United (without being directly involved with the club :rolleyes: ) he can rant and rave about the way the game is beeing played but it dosn't directly affect him and nothing he says will change a thing.

There is a difference between complaining and having an opinion :rolleyes:

So will all people that have not had any direct involvement helping, organising, running any trials event please stop complaining :thumbup:

Maybe, just maybe some people are passionate about our sport and don't want it to go to the scrapheap, our opinions won't change anything I doubt, but it makes for an interesting debate...............

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I have great respect for anybody that wants to put on a british championship round as it is a great hassle and to do it for 30 people is a great shame. The only way I can see to do it is to swell the entry. I could be wrong but the british championship as far as I have ever been told is for the best. I reckon each centre champion should be more than capable of attacking a british champ round at least on the expert route. I still think that 3 routes is the way forward and maybe it will swell the numbers. I for one would definitely be entering. I would do the expert class at the moment but when I see what my mates drop (who ride a hell of a lot more than me) it puts me off!

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Looking at most sports the winner of any championship is from 2 or 3 favorites -moto GP, F1 Premier soccer so BTC is no different.

Based upon the Neath round 50 or 60 riders is probably the ideal.(will cover the costs but not induce excessive queuing or issues with time limits etc).

We can not make people better in order to compete on the hard championship route so need to accept that this is going to be elitist.

What we need to do is make the other 40 to 50 riders have an enjoyable yet challenging day supporting the best of British.

Youth A, experts, Masters, a junior cup for under 21s etc needs to be considered to boost the entries on the support route and as C of C's we need to plot a sensible route that takes 10 to 15 marks off the winner and does not kill the rider who has stepped up to the challenge.

The full BTC route should be suitably hard enough to find a winner and show off their talents to the rest of us.

I also think the practice sessions should be dropped as this makes the sections harder ( how many of us drop more marks on the first lap) and would reduce costs.

The first lap time limit should eliminate some of the time issue that used to occur before practice was allowed.

What about starting the championship leader of first on green slimmy sections!!!!!

If we as C of C's get the sections wrong then thats just the way it is I think practices just adds to the overall work load.

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However, the people complaining in this thread don't appear to have any link to the event so why comment if it doesn't affect you?

Atom, is'nt it time for you to put your feet on some pegs again.instead of complaining about us having an opinion.

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I also think the practice sessions should be dropped as this makes the sections harder ( how many of us drop more marks on the first lap) and would reduce costs.

I totally agree with this, the whole concept of a practice lap goes against the whole point of trials. We are the ones that invented the sport, but are the only ones that have this daft practice lap in place. By all means have the sections available for viewing, as per a world / euro round, if there are any problems with the sections the riders will pick up on it here, i.e. a dangerous section, it could then be altered before the start of the event.

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