More Trouble At Ahrma

[swooshdave]

It IS unfortunate and true, the comments of the riders seem to agree that trials is still the ******* child of AHRMA. Seems members input have little results! Shame.

In some parts of the country this is true.

Many rediculous rules and such have put me off from going back to the proverbial Roots of trials (and my age group).

Ridiculous rules? Such as?

[trialsrooster]

Yes, like most TC threads this has wandered way off the original topic! which I believe was the appalling treatment of a particular AHRMA volunteer who, as usual did a fine job but was discarded on the the drop of a hat...... remember the Woody Graves treatment? While most of us have tremendous respect for the Trustees these last 2 incidents leave us all speechless, let alone the ridiculous opposition to the inclusion of a modern twinshock class. Should AHRMA wish to hold Trials events reminisecent of the 50's 60's and 70's then perhaps they should revert to a single line section with all classes attempting the same section. There of course will be big differences in the scores depending on class and ability but that WAS THE WAY IT WAS. ITSA does try to capture some of this idea but isolates sections to varying classes or ability levels so therefore never gives a first timer or Novice a true idea as to how he or she performed relative to an accredited Expert on the same line. Comments regarding the "loop" are in my opinion worthless as are comments on "AHRMA 4 line riders" as in National Competition you can either ride the bike or not, and if the loop is too difficult to ride or the sections are outside your current ability then.... don't whine or complain, get out there and practice or take up another sport.

Tony

Just one question , what possible value could it be to a begginer or novice to ride the same line that is supposed to be a challenge to a expert rider . That looks like the best way I know to discourage a rider at the very least . If the idea is to make the expert line easy enough for a novice rider then you don't do service to the expert class riders. cheers , Bruce

[copemech]

In some parts of the country this is true.

Ridiculous rules? Such as?

Dave, I cannot even recall specifically, as I shrugged it all off a number of years ago. One of my buddies that was into that stuff tried to explain some of it to me, things like you can rede a Mont 248 but not a 249 or something, many other bikes excluded. I think a 200 Honda Reflex even is excluded.

Seems the ITSA rules are much simpler, 2 shocks, air cooled, no brakes!

It is even simpler here, where we run a vintage class in the State series(2 shocks)! Still not really enough riders to make any of it worthwhile really.

Seems you guys have the best lot! Have fun, as that is what it is all about!

[swooshdave]

Dave, I cannot even recall specifically, as I shrugged it all off a number of years ago. One of my buddies that was into that stuff tried to explain some of it to me, things like you can rede a Mont 248 but not a 249 or something, many other bikes excluded. I think a 200 Honda Reflex even is excluded.

Year cutoff is 1979 for AHRMA. Reflex is newer. Pretty simple. Same with other bikes that are excluded. 248 and 249 are both in, I don't know if "like-model" applies here.

Seems the ITSA rules are much simpler, 2 shocks, air cooled, no brakes!

There are still classes in ITSA. Historic, pre-Historic, etc. So on the face of it ITSA may seem simplistic, it's still broken in to class with rules...

It is even simpler here, where we run a vintage class in the State series(2 shocks)! Still not really enough riders to make any of it worthwhile really.

Seems you guys have the best lot! Have fun, as that is what it is all about!

When we run with the modern club we also have Vintage A & B. I think these are strictly twin-shock. Ishy or Jay might be able to comment. I ride the Vintage B but sometime wish I there were more kid's lines.

Edited November 17, 2008 by swooshdave

[jaylael]

This thread and the emotionally charged direction it has taken, speak volumes of some of the basic arguments that AHRMA founders are faced with constantly. I don't agree that complaining about what bad guys Dick Mann and Jeff Smith are with regard to these rules as they stand today, could have any productive merit. This is a big country and AHRMA has so many veried participants, that it seems impossible that they could please "everyone".

[copemech]

This thread and the emotionally charged direction it has taken, speak volumes of some of the basic arguments that AHRMA founders are faced with constantly. I don't agree that complaining about what bad guys Dick Mann and Jeff Smith are with regard to these rules as they stand today, could have any productive merit. This is a big country and AHRMA has so many veried participants, that it seems impossible that they could please "everyone".

I hear what you are saying Jay, And don't want to seem the bitchey role as I am a total outsider now. Being fully adapted to mod bikes, even at my poor mid level and old age, you see I simply have come to the conclusion that even though fun it may be, the entire concept of sustainability, ill handling old overweight stuff is just too much for me nowadays. Seems your best off on a Yamaha! So be it! That ole Bultaco sitting in the main room at TTC is where it needs to be, last I seen! Just can not handle more headaches or expense to attempt it a few times per year. Stating that, I fully realize there are many old gits that never done anything else than the old ones, many steller riders, I know a one or two!

Too bad you cannot run the Sherdaka!

[slalom_specialist]

From the AHRMA rulebook:

Tony, do you not see any problems with your statement when ARHMA runs an event (including Nationals) that caters to amateur riders including kids on Yamaha 60 minienduros and people who've never ridden a trial before (and may be doing it on some early 70s enduro bike that they dragged out of a shed)?

Michael, I am not sure you if realize it or not, but AHRMA is actually opposed to kids on Yamaha 60's competing. This comes from AHRMA's moron of a legal counsel who has advised them that children under 16 are an added liability.

AHRMA events are "national" only in that they cover most of the nation, not in that they are aimed at "National" level riders. If you are running a pro-type "National" then you need to have a way to exclude people who don't fit that caliber of event, which I suspect will be about 80% of the AHRMA trials riders.

Difficult riding at that kind of event needs to take place in a section where someone can ride a line appropriate to their skill level. The loop needs to be set for the very lowest denominator rider. If you don't, then you might as well just refuse their entry as taking their money and pointing them at a loop they may not be able to navigate is pretty close to fraud (in my view).

cheers,

Michael

As far as the loops being too hard, I have never seen a loop (not counting NATC Nationals) that a novice class rider could not navigate safely......... granted that doesn't always mean riding feet up, but there is nothing that says they can't sit and paddle through a short section of the loop if they feel uncomfortable. Because of the nature of our sport and the terrain required to create sections for the various classes, it is difficult if not impossible to create the cart path type loop.

As for the guy "on some early 70s enduro bike that they dragged out of a shed " "or the kids on Yamaha 60 minienduros" if they can not ride well enough to navigate an AHRMA loop, (which for the most part is equivalent to a 4 line section) then they have no business entering the event in the 1st place. And in regard to the fraud you mentioned, the greater fraud comes from the rider on the clapped out early 70's enduro (who's skill level should be limiting him to riding in a 40 acre field) who endangers not only himself, but other riders as well by just being on the loop.........

Don't get me wrong, I am always in favor of sharing our sport with new riders, but like all competive sports, there has to be a basic level of skill required before one can compete. In other words, they should at least know how to ride a motorcycle..........

[swooshdave]

Michael, I am not sure you if realize it or not, but AHRMA is actually opposed to kids on Yamaha 60's competing. This comes from AHRMA's moron of a legal counsel who has advised them that children under 16 are an added liability.

I believe the under-16 rule applies to MX. At least at the regionals, kids on TY80s are not unheard of.

[jessie wallace]

I

[alan_nc]

Slalom,

"As far as the loops being too hard, I have never seen a loop (not counting NATC Nationals) that a novice class rider could not navigate safely......... granted that doesn't always mean riding feet up, but there is nothing that says they can't sit and paddle through a short section of the loop if they feel uncomfortable. Because of the nature of our sport and the terrain required to create sections for the various classes, it is difficult if not impossible to create the cart path type loop."

I don't know where you have been riding (or your skill level) but I've ridden several loops that were much harder than any of the sections. Last years Barber loop took out several riders before they ever got to the first section. It was at least 1/8 mile of steep downhill gravel with tough turns - and then an uphill to get out of the area. I don't agree that you can't set up a safe loop.

That sure doesn't let anyone test their Trials talent.

Alan

[slalom_specialist]

Well put

[slalom_specialist]

Slalom,

"As far as the loops being too hard, I have never seen a loop (not counting NATC Nationals) that a novice class rider could not navigate safely......... granted that doesn't always mean riding feet up, but there is nothing that says they can't sit and paddle through a short section of the loop if they feel uncomfortable. Because of the nature of our sport and the terrain required to create sections for the various classes, it is difficult if not impossible to create the cart path type loop."

I don't know where you have been riding (or your skill level) but I've ridden several loops that were much harder than any of the sections. Last years Barber loop took out several riders before they ever got to the first section. It was at least 1/8 mile of steep downhill gravel with tough turns - and then an uphill to get out of the area. I don't agree that you can't set up a safe loop.

That sure doesn't let anyone test their Trials talent.

Alan

Allen,

I have ridden events in New England, and the Mid west, but mostly in the Southeast. Mainly AHRMA, ITSA, STRA. I can't speak for Barber's this year, (the event was in a new area) but I was one of the riders that 1st scouted Barbers land for both the trials and CC, and know the terrain very well. (I also lived in Birmingham for 20 years and rode in the area around Barbers track long before they started construction) Most of the time I ride the 3 line in AHRMA events, (mostly due to not spending any time on the bike due to my work schedule), and at times when I can ride regularly, I am comfortable on the 2 line. As for the gravel downhill & opposite uphill you refer to, are you referring to the down hill across the spillway and up to the parking area?

If so, I have been up and down that hillside in the dry and in a hard rain and I don't see how it was remotely dangerous, even for someone riding the 4 line. (it is a gravel road used mostly by Kawasaki mules and like work vehicles.) In fact 80% of the loop at Barbers was made from old jeep roads, some of which are used by the Porsche experience off road school based at Barbers. If we are talking about the same hills, it would be my opinion that if a rider was scared off from the trials event because that downhill and up hill section of the loop, they would not be able to ride the 4 line, and should not have entered the trial to begin with. I think they would be better served attending a beginners trials school to learn the basics of off road riding before attempting another trials event, AHRMA or other wise.

Please remember this is after all a competition event, and while some riders take it more or less seriously than others, it is still a competitive event. It is also important to remember that in a trials event, like all forms of motorsport, there will always be inherent dangers and risks. As an attorney, I make my living defending civil law suits, as well as doing risk management consulting to several sanctioning bodies, including the AMA. I am also one of the 1st persons to be pushing safety issues that concern all riders......(next time your asked to bring your helmet to sign up for inspection, you can thank me),......... but the truth is, nobody can eliminate all of the dangers and risks from our sport and riders need to understand the risk and have the basic riding skills to properly evaluate those risks and determine if they should compete or not. If a rider is worried about how hard the loop at any given event is, they can always walk the loop before sign up,......... if they feel it is beyond their abilities, they can either speak with the trials master to see if there is a easier way around the difficult section, (ITSA events generally have an easy route around harder sections of a loop for the beginner class) or choose not enter the event. I am sure you and many others won't agree with me, but there are always several beginner and novice class riders at AHRMA events that do not possess the basic riding skills to enter and had no business riding in the event in the 1st place,......................... and in most cases, pose not only a danger to themselves, but also pose a danger to me and everyone else entered.

Edited November 19, 2008 by slalom_specialist

[axulsuv]

P*** , Very eloquently put ... And I feel bad for mentioning the creek at the ranch (actually the climb out of it , at times !) and not stating the Fact that at most every ITSA event there is usually a separate loop for pure novice riders if need be !!! And I personally love the loops the crew lays out ! even if sometimes by the end of the day they start to remind me of my early days as a kid riding enduros in new england ...

See ya as soon as my shoulder tells me I'm ready !!!

Glenn

Edited November 20, 2008 by axulsuv

[alan_nc]

Slalom,

Really don't mean to make an issue of this. I was just expressing a point. The part of the loop I am talking about at Barber is the winding downhill to the concrete bridge over the creek and then the uphill on the other side. There is no way a mule could make it up or down either side (it's a trail about one bike wide).

A 125cc ridgid frame (there is a class in AHRMA for these) would not have a prayer on the hill. As I mentioned several riders were forced to drop out of the event when they could not make it up the hill. I don't know their names, but if they read this they might chime in.

The point: AHRMA needs to attract more and varied riders. You gain skill by riding events and if you scare them off before they gain any skill .....they are not coming back. Look at the faces at an AHRMA event; they have gray beards and creases. If AHRMA is to continue we need new blood.

I am currently riding a vintage bike against modern bikes. I have ridden against 12 year olds this year and at least one teenager in every event. I have never had anyone in my class over 50. Now that is a healthy club with a future. By the way several of the teenagers ride vintage bikes.

AHRMA (Like the American Auto Industry), needs to clean out the "Old Boys Club" and get some folks in there that have a clue what the future is.

Alan - please I really don't mean this as a shot at any one person.

[trialsrooster]

Slalom,

Really don't mean to make an issue of this. I was just expressing a point. The part of the loop I am talking about at Barber is the winding downhill to the concrete bridge over the creek and then the uphill on the other side. There is no way a mule could make it up or down either side (it's a trail about one bike wide).

A 125cc ridgid frame (there is a class in AHRMA for these) would not have a prayer on the hill. As I mentioned several riders were forced to drop out of the event when they could not make it up the hill. I don't know their names, but if they read this they might chime in.

The point: AHRMA needs to attract more and varied riders. You gain skill by riding events and if you scare them off before they gain any skill .....they are not coming back. Look at the faces at an AHRMA event; they have gray beards and creases. If AHRMA is to continue we need new blood.

I am currently riding a vintage bike against modern bikes. I have ridden against 12 year olds this year and at least one teenager in every event. I have never had anyone in my class over 50. Now that is a healthy club with a future. By the way several of the teenagers ride vintage bikes.

AHRMA (Like the American Auto Industry), needs to clean out the "Old Boys Club" and get some folks in there that have a clue what the future is.

Alan - please I really don't mean this as a shot at any one person.

Alan , I've ridden a 125 ridged Maverick on just about evey kind of loop imaginable including at TTC in a modern event , I've been up and down the road in question at Barber I helped set up the first event at that location , at Mid Ohio one year I helped a 10 year old girl around the loop on a TY80 and I'm no expert rider . MY point is I've never seen a loop that could not be ridden safely by a novice rider . SO LETS GET OVER THIS OK ?