More Trouble At Ahrma

[alan_nc]

We disagree, which is not a problem.

My point: Look at the makeup of AHRMA... It's a bunch of OLD WHITE MEN. In the nine events I rode there was one female entry - on the four line. Maybe three or four events had an older teenager riding, no sub-teens. I know AHRMA doesn't encourge children/youths to ride....but I think that is exactly the wrong attitude. If you don't have new blood the sport won't continue. We need to get some youth oriented people on the board.

Alan

[slalom_specialist]

We disagree, which is not a problem.

My point: Look at the makeup of AHRMA... It's a bunch of OLD WHITE MEN. In the nine events I rode there was one female entry - on the four line. Maybe three or four events had an older teenager riding, no sub-teens. I know AHRMA doesn't encourge children/youths to ride....but I think that is exactly the wrong attitude. If you don't have new blood the sport won't continue. We need to get some youth oriented people on the board.

Alan

Allen,

I agree that one develops some skills by competing in events,.....but I think a rider needs to have a level of basic off road riding skills before entering an AHRMA National event........... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree,....and that is ok too. Change for the better can only come about when all sides of an issue are aired. Maybe the answer for beginning riders is to hold a separate beginner trials the day before or that morning with a number of 4 line sections placed close to the paddock area, sort of like the STRA does with youth trials and was done back in the 70's by a lot of clubs. That way they can also learn from the more experienced riders who are always willing to help out beginners (which is hard to do when you are also riding your own sections at the same time)......

I do agree with you about changes being needed at AHRMA, I think there needs to be a complete house cleaning of who is in control. Which is why I will not be renewing my membership. To be honest, after all these years in AHRMA, I just do not believe the changes needed will happen, which is why I will be riding only ITSA events next year.

I also agree with you about the need to bring more young riders into the sport. I completely disagree with the opinion of AHRMA's legal counsel regarding riders under 16 (for a lot of reasons new legal counsel is another change AHRMA needs) and more women riders would also be a good thing............

Over all I think you and I agree on many more things than we disagree about. (I think we just have different ideas on what constitutes a National event) The most important thing is we both care a great deal about our sport and both of us want to see it grow and be a family sport, where everyone has fun.

Cheers,

Pete

Edited November 21, 2008 by slalom_specialist

[n714ag]

Well...after seeing the 2009 schedule, I will add my $0.02...

In the 2008 season, only 9 of 25 events were held east of the Mississippi and of those 9 only 1 was held at a site less than 8 hours drive from my home in Western NC...

In the 2009 season...6 of 21 events are being held east of the Big Muddy and again only 1 less than 8 hours away...So I must ask myself..."what's the point?"

I will not be renewing my membership in AHRMA for 2009...

Murray

[slalom_specialist]

Well...after seeing the 2009 schedule, I will add my $0.02...

In the 2008 season, only 9 of 25 events were held east of the Mississippi and of those 9 only 1 was held at a site less than 8 hours drive from my home in Western NC...

In the 2009 season...6 of 21 events are being held east of the Big Muddy and again only 1 less than 8 hours away...So I must ask myself..."what's the point?"

I will not be renewing my membership in AHRMA for 2009...

Murray

Murray,

This is just another one of a growing list of reasons against AHRMA as far as I am concerned.

There are several people in AHRMA, who for one reason or another have been pushing for the series to be more west coast originated for a while now. Additionally, guys like Dick Mann, who has a vested interest in selling his heavy weight trials bikes, (mostly to west coast riders because his bikes don't seem to like eastern terrain) has been pushing this agenda hard for the last 5 or 6 years.

The Ironic thing to me is that the NATC, in creating its new twin shock class, recognized the majority of twin shock trials riders in the US seem to be on the east coast, which is the reason the new NATC twin shock support class will debut this year at TTC and include the events in Vermont and New York. (go figure)

NATC twin shock class:

Twin Shock Class Rules:

This proposal is for a new NATC Twin Shock class. It is designed to be simple for all

involved. It is only open to riders of an advanced or expert caliber on Twin Shock

bikes. Twin Shock (TS) will be just like any other Support class. There will be no age

classifications. All AMA/NATC rules and requirements will be observed.

EXPECTATIONS:

The hope is that this new class will grow to be comparable to the size of any of the

other Support classes. If the series is to be centered on the East Coast in 2009 this

would be a good year to try it out as the strongest concentration of TS

riders is in the East, South East and Mid-Atlantic states. See www.mavt.org and

www.twinshock.org.

GOAL:

This class is designed to be the most challenging and competitive Twin Shock series

in the US. It is not for riders that are afraid to scratch their bikes.

[ittybits]

It is interesting to read your complaints regarding the national trials schedule for both 2008 and 2009. Do you have a location in mind to schedule an event east of the Mississippi and are you willing to do the work to coordinate and set the event?

As the AHRMA trials coordinators, we have had a request out for over a year for anyone knowing of a location in the east that would be available for an event. We have had no responses to that request. We cannot arbitrarily schedule an event without having a willing landowner/promoter and someone willing do the work associated with the event.

In 2008, we lost Devils Ridge and Broome Tioga because either the promoter or the individuals who had previously set the events decided that they were not going to do them again because of the low turnout. Therefore, you do not just go ahead and put them back in the schedule to give you a location east of the Mississippi.

For 2009, we attempted to schedule a two-day event east of the Mississippi; however, that location did not want to commit to an AHRMA event until after they had an opportunity to see the ITSA schedule. Another location east of the Mississippi is not on this year

[alan_nc]

Ed and Evelyn Peacock,

You two just can't handle the whole U.S. You say there aren't locations but our local/regional clubs are adding events and locations each year. I live in central NC and can ride in an event at least every other weekend within 2 to 4 hours of my home(from Feb to Nov). These clubs have no interest in making them AHRMA events because they don't want to deal with AHRMA. The AHRMA Trials rules need to be changed.

You could put on an event with a lot less people if you went to Peer Scoring. I know that you have come out for the addition of other twin shock build years being included - this needs to happen. Stopping has become the norm. If a rider is good enough to stop and balance in the middle of a section don't add points. I really don't think the difficulty of the sections is an issue. My experience is that AHRMA (you guys) have don't a good job in this area.

The board and their out dated ideas needs to go for AHRMA to ever be a vibrant organization again. I'm afraid you are doomed this coming year just because of the economy. You are going to have less riders at each event so getting support is going to be even tougher.

I have sent my money in for the coming year and may not ride a single event. You know the old saying "don't complain if you didn't vote". I wish you the best for the coming year. I think the two of you have done about all you can.

Alan

[swooshdave]

I'm going riding with Alan later today (if it stops raining). I'll get to argue these points in person.

Ed and Evelyn Peacock,

You two just can't handle the whole U.S. You say there aren't locations but our local/regional clubs are adding events and locations each year. I live in central NC and can ride in an event at least every other weekend within 2 to 4 hours of my home(from Feb to Nov). These clubs have no interest in making them AHRMA events because they don't want to deal with AHRMA. The AHRMA Trials rules need to be changed.

The events you mention as every other weekend are modern trials. Much larger base than vintage only. Just adding Twinshock would not be enough for more vintage events.

You could put on an event with a lot less people if you went to Peer Scoring. I know that you have come out for the addition of other twin shock build years being included - this needs to happen. Stopping has become the norm. If a rider is good enough to stop and balance in the middle of a section don't add points. I really don't think the difficulty of the sections is an issue. My experience is that AHRMA (you guys) have don't a good job in this area.

If you've ridden a lot of events with observers you get spoiled. I've ridden events with 20 riders, with observers. Depends on how it's organized as to whether there are observers.

Our local modern trials club in Oregon tries to organize their events so the lower classes ride in the morning (with experts observing) and switch in the afternoon. So there are other options to peer scoring.

No stop? That's not going to increase or decrease the number of riders.

The board and their out dated ideas needs to go for AHRMA to ever be a vibrant organization again. I'm afraid you are doomed this coming year just because of the economy. You are going to have less riders at each event so getting support is going to be even tougher.

That will be the case with any "recreational" organization. A contraction of events is going to be inevitable. Doesn't necessarily spell the end of AHRMA.

I have sent my money in for the coming year and may not ride a single event. You know the old saying "don't complain if you didn't vote". I wish you the best for the coming year. I think the two of you have done about all you can.

Alan

As Ed stated, you have to have promoters. No promoters in the East means no events. Trials, and especially vintage trials it a hyper-specialized hobby. Out West it's taken patrons (like Mann) to shepherd vintage trials to where it's now, which I'd say is pretty good considering the challenges. It will take the same dedication (time and expense) to build up vintage trials in the East. Until someone or a few someones step up, it's an insurmountable challenge.

As the National Coordinators, Ed and Evelyn can't conjure promoters out of thin air. And it's not like they can go to someone not completely dedicated to vintage trials and go, "Would you mind spending an excessive amount of time to put on an event that will most likely lose money and then, regardless of how it goes someone will still complain?" If someone could pull that sales job they could make more money selling ice to Eskimos.

[alan_nc]

Maybe Dave and I can hash this over and post a joint reply.

As to the added events: Yes they include modern bikes. I think you need to do this to get the overall numbers up. It is easy enough to have proper lines in the same section. One of our clubs is going to run a Vintage Line at every event this coming year.

Peer Scoring: Personally I would rather have an experienced Trials rider score me than someones significant other or a 12 year old, who have never seen a Trials event in their lives (both of which have happened).

Rules: No this probably won't increase numbers of riders. It just indicated the mind set of the guys in charge (no change). Also makes a local club have less interest in hosting an event (play/score by two sets of rules).

Economy: Yes, everything will suffer this year. Would be a good time to change the rules as it would effect less people.

Alan

[swooshdave]

Maybe Dave and I can hash this over and post a joint reply.

I have a bad feeling that this will involve Alan pointing to a path and saying, "Say, that doesn't look to bad, Dave. Give it a try."

60ft precipice on the other side...

Pictures later.

[slalom_specialist]

It is interesting to read your complaints regarding the national trials schedule for both 2008 and 2009. Do you have a location in mind to schedule an event east of the Mississippi and are you willing to do the work to coordinate and set the event?

As the AHRMA trials coordinators, we have had a request out for over a year for anyone knowing of a location in the east that would be available for an event. We have had no responses to that request. We cannot arbitrarily schedule an event without having a willing landowner/promoter and someone willing do the work associated with the event.

In 2008, we lost Devils Ridge and Broome Tioga because either the promoter or the individuals who had previously set the events decided that they were not going to do them again because of the low turnout. Therefore, you do not just go ahead and put them back in the schedule to give you a location east of the Mississippi.

For 2009, we attempted to schedule a two-day event east of the Mississippi; however, that location did not want to commit to an AHRMA event until after they had an opportunity to see the ITSA schedule. Another location east of the Mississippi is not on this year

Edited December 19, 2008 by slalom_specialist

[swooshdave]

I have a bad feeling that this will involve Alan pointing to a path and saying, "Say, that doesn't look to bad, Dave. Give it a try."

60ft precipice on the other side...

Pictures later.

Pictures here.

[n714ag]

I, too, would like to thank Ed and his wife for their Herculean effort in trying to get AHRMA back into Trials, however, it seems that AHRMA

[axulsuv]

I just want to go riding !!!! after a week back at work , my shoulder is telling me to get on my bike asap !!!

Glenn

[tony283]

As a dedicated trials rider with over 45 years in the sport, my first ever trophy being in 1963, I feel compelled to comment. There is, in reality, no difference between AHRMA and ITSA in the desire to promote the sport. Trials are trials however you lay out the sections. In the AHRMA circle there are 4 lines dependant on machine and ability. In ITSA you have 5 different sections with no splits and ride 5 sections of YOUR class and 5 of the sections class of the next LOWER class. With peer checking or buddy checking it makes for a lot of fun and and a very sociable event where a little "sympathy", but still within the rules, can be exercised. From my own experience there is NO difference in the severity of the sections whether you ride AHRMA or ITSA.

ITSA has a more relaxed view point on machine eligibility and that was ALL that was sought with this years proposal being to allow the last of the Twinshocks to have a National Championship within the AHRMA body. Whether you like it or not people turn up and ride these twinshocks at AHRMA events and it is a mystery as to why we won't recognise people like Bailey Tucker riding a 1980's Honda and give credit to a young man who choses to ride both disciplines and in my opinion will very soon be the USA Champion on modern machines and could equally run away with Modern Classic Experts if he accepts my offer to ride the Glitzmobile in 2009. The Trustees, for whatever reason, chose not to give this group of machines a Championship of their own and as the Trustees views are not made public we have the continued discontent because no reasons are given. The proposal did not seek to have an "advanced Line" or 1A, merely to allow post 79 machines to compete riding the already established current 4 lines dependant on ability. At no time was there ever a desire to make sections more difficult or to move away from the excellent foundations of AHRMA or vintage trials.

Equally ITSA has no pretence of making sections ridiculously difficult or dangerous but has a seperate class for those "last of the era" machines. Clearly if you are a true "EXPERT" you may return a better score on the latest machine of that era and beat your best friends who are riding a 10 year older machine....... but who cares.... you ride what you bring !

Now if WE, as trials riders in the vintage world, wish to promote our sport we should stop the petty bickering and whining and support our local orgs and National systems for the good of all.

If YOU can do better than what we currently have... STEP UP ...... and DO IT....... a lot of us are trying....... but we need your support both on the org and on the turnout, constructive critism is excellent but if things are to improve it needs your PHYSICAL input.

Tony

Edited December 21, 2008 by tony283

[swooshdave]

The Trustees, for whatever reason, chose not to give this group of machines a Championship of their own and as the Trustees views are not made public we have the continued discontent because no reasons are given.

I think the Trustees vote on post-1979 trials bikes was listed in a recent VV.